How to confirm sequential is active?

[cj.surr]

The engine is a BMW S52B32 US. I am using  an M54 camshaft sensor because the stock one is not a standard vr/hall. It seems to be working well - trigger logger shows what I believe is a "cam level" style - high for one rotation, then low for next rotation. Cam angle #1 shows the proper angle and I have that offset in the "trigger 2 VVT" menu. However, if I set trigger2 to be "cam level", i get a lot of noise on the rpm signal (~100rpm jumps several times per second). Filtering did not help much. When I set trigger 2 mode to "1x cam pulse" my rpm signal is perfect and cam angle still shows the correct value. The "inlet/lh cam error counter" does increase about +1 per second with either mode. It seems like everything else is working fine, I'd just like a way to confirm that the engine is actually firing the injectors sequentially before I spend the time tuning the fuel map.

Also, I don't think it's related, but I had to set my trigger 1 to "falling edge", even though it goes high when there is a missing tooth. If I use "rising edge" I get occasional blips to sky high rpm randomly. The timing was checked and adjusted. I had to change the ignition delay down to 60 us (e36 base map was 115! - caused at least a few degrees of retard) to get the timing to be consistent to redline.

I attached my tune and a driving log with those settings 

 

Thanks!

 

E28.pclr Log 2019-06-28 11;55;02 pm.llg

[Richard Hill]

Can you post a triggerscope log, that might help identify the problem.

[cj.surr]

Car is down for maintenance, I won't be able to get one for a few days. Trigger log looked fine to me. 60-2 wheel has no faults. Cam sensor had a sharp square wave and 50% duty cycle, once per cam rotation. 

[cj]

Did you re-check the trigger 2 offset when changing from rising to falling edge? I believe cam-level is just looking for high/lo voltage, but on cam pulse it will be looking for the edges of the transition from hi/lo and so rising & falling numbers will be 360* apart on a cam like this, also if either edge is really close to the missing teeth then you can see errors if it moves about slightly. The LH Inlet cam is reporting an error state of "extra pulses" for that entire log. Trigger scope at idle would really help as it sounds like some additional edges are being seen by the ECU. At idle, the error counter is increasing by about 1 count per 5 rpm, so you may need to run a few captures and look for change between them or something that only occasionally pops up.

Is there a reason you are not using the S52 trigger pattern? It sounds like this might be 60-2 + cam level under the hood anyway, but there might be something else special in it. I assume trigger 2 is on your intake cam and not the exhaust?

I thought these engines were VVT/phased cams - the older ones intake only and the newer ones on both cams, but your config has it setup like a switched cam (eg vtec). If i'm right, then you would have your cam advance solenoid full open (subject to oil pressure) whenever that AUX3 output is triggered - but it will never trigger with the current config because the criteria is <4500rpm & >7500rpm - it cant ever be *both* these criteria at the same time 

I suspect it also doesnt help having incomplete VVT setup. You have it kind of disabled by not configuring it, but your log still shows 1-2* of VVT advance happening at anything about ~3k rpm. I cant tell if this is actual cam advance due to oil pressure or just slop in the cam belt/chain. At least set VVT up so the ECU knows to expect it, then set the target table to all 0 if you want it disabled to start with. (switch aux 3 to VVT solenoid & vvt control type to single Vanos, cam angle test = off, test pulse = 1)

[Adamw]

This is not an engine I know well, but if the cam has the "half moon" type wheel and it has the "infinitely variable VANOS" then you need to use the BMW M52 trigger mode (and also the M52 VVT mode). To improve the resolution of the "single cam tooth", these modes instead uses both the rising and falling edges to effectively give the ECU two teeth per cam rev.

[cj.surr]

On 7/2/2019 at 2:40 AM, cj said:

Did you re-check the trigger 2 offset when changing from rising to falling edge? I believe cam-level is just looking for high/lo voltage, but on cam pulse it will be looking for the edges of the transition from hi/lo and so rising & falling numbers will be 360* apart on a cam like this, also if either edge is really close to the missing teeth then you can see errors if it moves about slightly. The LH Inlet cam is reporting an error state of "extra pulses" for that entire log. Trigger scope at idle would really help as it sounds like some additional edges are being seen by the ECU. At idle, the error counter is increasing by about 1 count per 5 rpm, so you may need to run a few captures and look for change between them or something that only occasionally pops up. 

Trigger 2 has always been set to rising edge. I took the cam angle from "Intake/LH" parameter and put it into the offset in the "Trigger 2 VVT" menu. I am not really sure what the purpose of that angle setting is. I recorded a handful of trigger logs (attached). I can't figure out how to view them without being connected to the ecu to open the trigger logger. They looked OK at quick glance when I was recording them. I also have the datalog from when I took the trigger logs.

On 7/2/2019 at 2:40 AM, cj said:

Is there a reason you are not using the S52 trigger pattern? It sounds like this might be 60-2 + cam level under the hood anyway, but there might be something else special in it. I assume trigger 2 is on your intake cam and not the exhaust?

I tried the S52 trigger pattern with the same crank angle offset and it wouldn't start. There were some weird settings preloaded with it that I changed to my current settings and it didn't help. By default it had the 1/2 triggers as reluctor/reluctor (stock is hall/optical). Also the crank angle offset was 275 vs the -325 that I found. I don't know why these would be different, my 60-2 wheel is the same that is on all of this style engine. 

On 7/2/2019 at 2:40 AM, cj said:

I thought these engines were VVT/phased cams - the older ones intake only and the newer ones on both cams, but your config has it setup like a switched cam (eg vtec). If i'm right, then you would have your cam advance solenoid full open (subject to oil pressure) whenever that AUX3 output is triggered - but it will never trigger with the current config because the criteria is <4500rpm & >7500rpm - it cant ever be *both* these criteria at the same time 

There is only cam phasing on the intake cam for the S52B32. It is controlled with a simple ON/OFF from the ECU. The cam phasing was not continuously adjustable until the next generation dual Vanos M54 and M52TU. 

I have those settings because I want to tune without VVT first, then add a 4D map to trim fuel based on cam angle because the Vanos is slow to react and makes a big difference in VE.

On 7/2/2019 at 2:40 AM, cj said:

I suspect it also doesnt help having incomplete VVT setup. You have it kind of disabled by not configuring it, but your log still shows 1-2* of VVT advance happening at anything about ~3k rpm. I cant tell if this is actual cam advance due to oil pressure or just slop in the cam belt/chain. At least set VVT up so the ECU knows to expect it, then set the target table to all 0 if you want it disabled to start with. (switch aux 3 to VVT solenoid & vvt control type to single Vanos, cam angle test = off, test pulse = 1)

1-2deg is not signficant in my mind, I'm sure that's just from slop in the helical gearing of the Vanos. It will advance over 20 degrees, IIRC. 

Should a simple ON/OFF VVT be configured in the VVT settings at all, or just in the aux output?

On 7/2/2019 at 5:27 AM, Adamw said:

This is not an engine I know well, but if the cam has the "half moon" type wheel and it has the "infinitely variable VANOS" then you need to use the BMW M52 trigger mode (and also the M52 VVT mode). To improve the resolution of the "single cam tooth", these modes instead uses both the rising and falling edges to effectively give the ECU two teeth per cam rev.

 I was kind of confused by that part. Obviously there should never be a square wave going to the solenoid. 

On 7/2/2019 at 5:27 AM, Adamw said:

This is not an engine I know well, but if the cam has the "half moon" type wheel and it has the "infinitely variable VANOS" then you need to use the BMW M52 trigger mode (and also the M52 VVT mode). To improve the resolution of the "single cam tooth", these modes instead uses both the rising and falling edges to effectively give the ECU two teeth per cam rev.

The S52B32 is indeed half moon, but not infinitely variable, and only one cam has VVT. The M52TU is in fact infinitely variable, but that's also a dual VVT motor. So which setting should I be using? Like I said, chosing "cam level" causes an erratic RPM signal. 

Log 2019-07-3 12;25;54 pm trigger test.llg Trigger Scope Log 2019-07-3 12;24;46 pm.llg Trigger Scope Log 2019-07-3 12;25;00 pm.llg Trigger Scope Log 2019-07-3 12;25;08 pm.llg Trigger Scope Log 2019-07-3 12;25;15 pm.llg Trigger Scope Log 2019-07-3 12;25;20 pm.llg Trigger Scope Log 2019-07-3 12;25;31 pm.llg Trigger Scope Log 2019-07-3 12;25;42 pm.llg

[cj]

This is probably why your trigger 1 offset is different. Looks like BMW moved the missing teeth 240* relative to TDC at some point. This in itself isnt a major problem as the rest of the trigger pattern will still work fine with the offset changed. Yours is technically 240* different, plus another 360* to get the intake/exhaust on the right strokes. As long as the value you have a) gives you a solid reading on the timing light, and b) is on the right 360* cycle to fire up then your trigger1 offset is fine. Note that if you change this from multitooth to a predefined s52/m52 trigger mode, you need to re-check you timing with a light and the offset may change (because the "zero" position may be different on the OEM mode). You can change trigger type from VR to hall without "breaking" the trigger mode. I think your best bet is to set it to the S52/M52 mode then adjust timing etc until it fires up (try add/remove 360 if the timing light is good but it wont fire at all).

http://m54megasquirt3.blogspot.com/2011/09/timing-settings.html

Did you copy the trigger2 offset from the help file or check it yourself with a vvt cam test? if you have just used the help file, it may be wrong for your engine. Have the engine idling, then go to VVT -> Setup, and change "cam pulses" to 1 (or try 2 if the numbers jump around when set to S52 trigger mode). You may also need to set VVT mode to single vanos - i've never tried running cam test with vvt set to off now that I think about it. Now press F12 and go to the VVT tab, Cam angle #1 (and maybe 2) should show stable numbers. The lowest stable number (or the only one), is what you should set you trigger 2 vvt offset to be. Your scopes look ok so i'm now thinking either this offset being wrong or not using the OEM trigger mode is causing that inlet trigger error. You need this offset to be correct so that when VANOS advances, the ECU has a reference point of "normal" and can then tell how far advanced the cam is.

A circuit diagram of how that VANOS solenoid works would be the best place to start figuring out how to wire + control it. I've found some docs that line up with what you've said about it being on/off, but it looks to me like that might be just because of the slower computer that was installed from factory. The system itself looks to function like a hydraulic variable VVT system with no locking pins etc, and so the link may be able to drive it as such. If you are happy with all or nothing advance, and the wiring doesnt need to be "special" then yep just an on/off switch is fine.

[cj.surr]

On 7/4/2019 at 8:28 AM, cj said:

This is probably why your trigger 1 offset is different. Looks like BMW moved the missing teeth 240* relative to TDC at some point. This in itself isnt a major problem as the rest of the trigger pattern will still work fine with the offset changed. Yours is technically 240* different, plus another 360* to get the intake/exhaust on the right strokes. As long as the value you have a) gives you a solid reading on the timing light, and b) is on the right 360* cycle to fire up then your trigger1 offset is fine. Note that if you change this from multitooth to a predefined s52/m52 trigger mode, you need to re-check you timing with a light and the offset may change (because the "zero" position may be different on the OEM mode). You can change trigger type from VR to hall without "breaking" the trigger mode. I think your best bet is to set it to the S52/M52 mode then adjust timing etc until it fires up (try add/remove 360 if the timing light is good but it wont fire at all).

http://m54megasquirt3.blogspot.com/2011/09/timing-settings.html

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that difference. I will try the S52 and M52 settings. I am not sure how this would be any different than a generic 60-2 and cam level sensor though? 

On 7/4/2019 at 8:28 AM, cj said:

Did you copy the trigger2 offset from the help file or check it yourself with a vvt cam test? if you have just used the help file, it may be wrong for your engine. Have the engine idling, then go to VVT -> Setup, and change "cam pulses" to 1 (or try 2 if the numbers jump around when set to S52 trigger mode). You may also need to set VVT mode to single vanos - i've never tried running cam test with vvt set to off now that I think about it. Now press F12 and go to the VVT tab, Cam angle #1 (and maybe 2) should show stable numbers. The lowest stable number (or the only one), is what you should set you trigger 2 vvt offset to be. Your scopes look ok so i'm now thinking either this offset being wrong or not using the OEM trigger mode is causing that inlet trigger error. You need this offset to be correct so that when VANOS advances, the ECU has a reference point of "normal" and can then tell how far advanced the cam is.

I don't understand what the "cam pulses" means. I believe I turned cam test on, then disabled the vvt control and I was able to get a solid reading of 290deg so that's what I set the trigger offset to. But, like I said, this was with "cam pulse 1x" in trigger 2 settings, because "cam level" caused erratic engine rpm. So like Adam said, I think this is why I was getting the cam error.

So Aux 3 that my cam is on should be set to "vvt cam solenoid" instead of "cam-switched" if I am using VVT control, correct?

On 7/4/2019 at 8:28 AM, cj said:

A circuit diagram of how that VANOS solenoid works would be the best place to start figuring out how to wire + control it. I've found some docs that line up with what you've said about it being on/off, but it looks to me like that might be just because of the slower computer that was installed from factory. The system itself looks to function like a hydraulic variable VVT system with no locking pins etc, and so the link may be able to drive it as such. If you are happy with all or nothing advance, and the wiring doesnt need to be "special" then yep just an on/off switch is fine.

Yeah, it works fine with the Link (I've tested it), it's just a basic solenoid valve. I would bet that it could be driven with pwm for variable control, but I wonder if the lifetime of the valve would be compromised from the rapid open/close.

 

Thanks

CJ

[cj]

cam pulses in this sense means the number of trigger edges that the computer expects to see in a single cam rotation (720 engine degrees). With the possible exception of this exact BMW trigger, cam timing only reads the rising or falling edges of the trigger signal, and so "number of cam pulses" means the number of teeth on your cam wheel.

By putting it into test mode with VVT disabled/fully retarded and looking at the angles shown, The ECU can tell you what angles it is seeing the pulses/edges at. You then pick the smallest angle and use this as your VVT offset for trigger2. This way when you have test mode off, the ECU can compare the "normal" angle to the current cam angle, and determine how far advanced the cam is because of VVT. The calculation of how it works with multiple cam teeth is a bit more complex, but its conceptually quite simple in that all cam teeth (if you have more than 1) will be advanced by the same amount if the cam advances so you can imagine how the ECU can watch for cam advance as it sees each tooth.

From what Adam said above, the BMW cam trigger mode might be special in that it watches for rising and falling edges to give it 2x points of reference. (note that the crank signal will be normal 60-2, just the cam is different, but OEM trigger modes typically define both crank + cam configs in the one setting). Because of this "2 edge" config, i'm not sure if you will see 1x cam pulse or 2x in the VVT test mode. If you see 2x, use the value of the smaller one.

[Adamw]

I dont know what you are up to here, you said earlier your engine doesnt have infinitely variable VANOS, just the on/off "two state VANOS".  You dont need to mess around with any of the VVT stuff, this is just what we call a switched cam.   VVT should be set to off and the aux output should be set to "CAM - Switched".  The generic missing tooth + Cam pulse 1X or Cam level sync is all you need for the trigger.  You cannot control the camshaft in any other way than on/off, fully advanced/fully retarded.

[cj.surr]

On 7/7/2019 at 5:50 AM, Adamw said:

I dont know what you are up to here, you said earlier your engine doesnt have infinitely variable VANOS, just the on/off "two state VANOS".  You dont need to mess around with any of the VVT stuff, this is just what we call a switched cam.   VVT should be set to off and the aux output should be set to "CAM - Switched".  The generic missing tooth + Cam pulse 1X or Cam level sync is all you need for the trigger.  You cannot control the camshaft in any other way than on/off, fully advanced/fully retarded.

Ok, that's what I was thinking originally... So I still have the question - why does using "cam level" cause an erratic engine rpm reading, when "cam pulse 1x" seems to work fine (but shows errors)?

Thanks

[Simon]

If you are getting trigger errors its not going to be fine. There will be some timing scatter happening. 

Both modes could be used but Level is the better option as it allows the engine to sync in half a cycle. 

Make sure your trig 1 edge is set to falling 

Trig 2 vvt should be off and the Aux should be Cam switched for the cam control (No VVT settings should be in use)

 

 

[cj.surr]

OK, I'm going to recap, because this seems to be getting confusing. 

Generic Multiwheel 60-2 (cam 1x pulse) - RPM signal perfect, i have a hundred miles in and I haven't noticed any hiccups, cam error piles up (extra pulses), cam angle reading is solid. If I set Trig 1 to "rising", then I get occasional RPM spikes

Generic Multiwheel 60-2 (cam level) - seems the same as cam 1x pulse

S52 trigger pattern - Seems to be for a wheel of different teeth # - I get erratic firing and RPM value when changing base timing - no start

S50 Trigger pattern - seems to run exactly the  same as generic 60-2 (cam 1x)

M52 Trigger pattern - also seems the same as generic 60-2 but requires crank offset of +30 instead of -325. Also I get different values for cam angle #1 and #2 - I assume it is expecting a dual VVT motor when mine is single

 

Trigger scope looks fine to me, I have checked dozens of times and it always looks the same. I feel like the cam signal is not the problem here. 

I am assuming it does not matter if cam test mode is on or not. I am leaving it on so I can see absolute Cam angle as I change settings. I have VVT off, and cam-switched set up ( am angle test still seems to work with VVT off)

For all of the working trigger patterns I seem to get a steady cam angle #1 reading of 290deg. So I have 290deg ATDC in the TRIG 2 VVT settings menu along with "inlet/lh"

I'm not sure this is important but I have 12v power going to both my cam and crank sensors as it is from the factory. 

 

 

Thanks

CJ

[Simon]

Set the trigger 2 VVT to off (this is only used for fully variable cam control). 

Then use either cam level or cam x1, which ever gives you good stable RPM and not Trig 1 errors.

 

 

[cj.surr]

8 hours ago, Simon said:

Set the trigger 2 VVT to off (this is only used for fully variable cam control). 

Then use either cam level or cam x1, which ever gives you good stable RPM and not Trig 1 errors.

 

 

I set this to off and I get "no signal" error on intake/lh. It seems to run poorer, as if sequential is not active.

 

edit: that was with "cam pulse 1x". I will need to try it with "cam level" later.

[cj.surr]

 

On 7/8/2019 at 6:51 PM, Simon said:

If you are getting trigger errors its not going to be fine. There will be some timing scatter happening. 

Both modes could be used but Level is the better option as it allows the engine to sync in half a cycle. 

Make sure your trig 1 edge is set to falling 

Trig 2 vvt should be off and the Aux should be Cam switched for the cam control (No VVT settings should be in use)

 

 

OK, so I now have it set up as you have described. Generic 60-2, VVT off, Trig 2 VVT off, Cam Level. It seems to run fine. No trig 1 errors yet. I have a few questions and concerns now...

1) It does not seem like anything has changed with turning off Trig 2 VVT except: It doesn't look like it checks for Intake Cam signal errors and I can't read cam position (I would like cam position to be an axis on my 4D fuel map - one of the main reasons I switched to a Link ECU)

2) It does not seem like continuously variable VVT would have a chance at working (considering the signal error on cam position when VVT settings are on). I am considering retrofitting a PWM VVT valve that should allow me to have continously variable VVT. Since it should all be technically possible, I'm still curious why I should be getting errors when VVT mode is fully enabled and all settings seem to be correct. 

3) How can I confirm that the engine is running sequentially and not fallen back on batch fire (if it does that at all)? I will spend a lot of time tuning the fuel map in the near future and I know that not having it firing sequentially can affect low load.

Thanks

CJ