B18 Turbo

[Knox]

Hello everyone. 

I tuned a sleeved honda b18 engine with gtw3884 garrett turbo and race fuel. After 1.5 bar engine misfires (at 1.7bar with two small misfire engine makes 612whp, you can see where are misfires on dyno graph). There is honda k20 coils installed and dwell time is 2.3ms at 14volts. Coils +12volt and ground wires all come together and diveded into 4, I’m writing this because I’m not sure if they have seperate wires from source. Spark plugs are ngk bkr8eix with 0.5mm gap. I need advise can it be the k20 coil  has not enough power or wires should be seperate or cam and crank position sensors are stock with disributor so can it be the sensor pick ups? 

 

Thanks in advance.

 

[Adamw]

I dont have much personal experience with the K20 coils but your dwell time sounds about right and I havent heard of others having a problem at that sort of boost level with them.  So I suspect you may have some other problem.  Please attach a log and the tune file.

[Gregconboy158]

My k20 cop get their power from the original power feed to dizzy, the earths go to the dizzy bolt and then all 4 signals go back to ECU plug. 

[Knox]

On 8/28/2019 at 10:56 AM, Adamw said:

I dont have much personal experience with the K20 coils but your dwell time sounds about right and I havent heard of others having a problem at that sort of boost level with them.  So I suspect you may have some other problem.  Please attach a log and the tune file.

Sorry for late reply. I wrote late because I thought I found the issue but it just make me increase the boost to until 2.0bar before misfire. What I changed from last time is lower the k20 coils dweel times as I found on Link forums who writes motec's test on k20 coils. I helps until 2 bar now I can increase boost without issue. I'm attacing tune file but I forgot to have a log with misfiring so I will attach an old log without misfire when I first lowered the dweel times, boost is 1.9-2bar there (this log file injectors looks 111% but now car uses two fuel pump and duty cycle is around 80%). And now engine makes 680whp on dynojet.

If I have log can I see if crank and camshaft sensors lost or not lost signal when misfire ? 
 

Today me and my friend tried to have a datalog on the road for misfire (at high boost) but because of transmission broken we couldn’t have a log. What I notice is when cranking engine starts normally but Trigger error counter shows 2 error. 

B18 RACE FUEL COP VE Honda Civic 92-95.pclr 2 bar Log 2019-09-27 10;58;13 pm.llg

Edited November 22, 2019 by Knox

[Knox]

No one ?

[Adamw]

On 11/20/2019 at 9:37 PM, Knox said:

If I have log can I see if crank and camshaft sensors lost or not lost signal when misfire ? 

You have a lot of dwell scatter when RPM increases which is generally a sign the engine position signal from the trigger is not very good.  It is hard to say if it is bad enough to cause a misfire but I would expect your spark is jumping around quite a bit.

You can do a triggerscope to see if that shows anything wrong but for an engine of this power level you should really be looking at a crank trigger system.

 

[Knox]

On 11/23/2019 at 8:33 AM, Adamw said:

You have a lot of dwell scatter when RPM increases which is generally a sign the engine position signal from the trigger is not very good.  It is hard to say if it is bad enough to cause a misfire but I would expect your spark is jumping around quite a bit.

Hello, thank you for repy. I think to advise this kit (link below) to my customer but this kit does not have crank sensor, this includes hall sensor for exhaust cam gear. Can I use this kit with Link ecu (because no crank sensor)? If I can please let me know how I calibrate the map in order to fire only from exhaust cam gear, am I need to make wasted spark or I can still use 4  coils ? 

https://www.speedfactoryracing.net/t1-b-series-cam-trigger-kit

[Knox]

Is there anyone can give some tips? Can I just use cam sensor and no crank sensor? If I can how can I set this t1r cam trigger kit? 

[Simon]

Yes this kit could be used ad looks to be a 12 + 1 multi tooth arrangement. 

Would need to see the kit instructions to advise more on the basic configuration. 

[Knox]

On 12/16/2019 at 4:33 AM, Simon said:

Yes this kit could be used ad looks to be a 12 + 1 multi tooth arrangement. 

Would need to see the kit instructions to advise more on the basic configuration. 

This is the response from T1 Racedevelopments to my email. 

"The ecu configuration for this sensor setup will depend on which ecu you're using. This will work with any ecu that can accept a hall signal (square wave) on the trigger inputs. The "crank" trigger signal will see 6 pulses per engine revolution (12 per cycle, 2 revolutions per engine cycle. The "cam" trigger signal will only see 1 pulse per engine cycle. There should also be a setting somewhere in the ecu that will ask you "cam" trigger position relative to TDC. You'll have to find out exactly what your ecu is looking for, for this parameter, and then measure to get the number in the ballpark. "
 

and on this link there is calibration examples for some ecu brands. 

[Adamw]

Setup pic attached below..  Trigger offset will have to be determined  with a timing light.

 

[Knox]

On 1/5/2020 at 3:09 AM, Adamw said:

Setup pic attached below..  Trigger offset will have to be determined  with a timing light.

 

Thank you for support. I will update this topic for other people when it works correctly. 

[Adamw]

I just found the instructions on the T1 kit, it mentions for Motec the Crip will be about 487deg (but it doesnt say if they use rising or falling edge), so try -233 for your trigger offset, I suspect this will be close.

[Knox]

On 1/11/2020 at 8:46 AM, Adamw said:

I just found the instructions on the T1 kit, it mentions for Motec the Crip will be about 487deg (but it doesnt say if they use rising or falling edge), so try -233 for your trigger offset, I suspect this will be close.

Ok, I just order the trigger kit so in one-two weeks I will write all details and also trigger offset which works for our engine. 

According to T1's Motec setup screenshout, I checked from software "SYNC Sensor Edge Polarity is 0" which is falling edge. So, screenshots above (you attached) should be ok? and I will try with -233 trigger offset (trigger offset before is 272 because of COP setup).

Thanks. 

[Knox]

On 1/11/2020 at 9:46 AM, Adamw said:

I just found the instructions on the T1 kit, it mentions for Motec the Crip will be about 487deg (but it doesnt say if they use rising or falling edge), so try -233 for your trigger offset, I suspect this will be close.

Hello,

Because of some issues we are late for starting the engine. Yesterday me and my customer/mechanic tried to start the engine but engine starts and stops, if we give some throttle engine don't stop but it backfires from intake manifold.So I tried +360 which is +127 and same engine start and die or start and backfires. Normally Tooth Count on T1 trigger wheel on exhaust camshaft is 12, you write 6 and I tried 6, is it correct and why ? can you please inform me about it? I will check it with ignition timing light as soon as possible because here is curfew because of Covid-19. I see same issue topic on haltech forums about t1 cam trigger kit which says tooth offset: 19 trigger angle:67 and number of tooth:12 if it makes sense for you.
Here is the link for Haltech forums. 
https://forums.haltech.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=10793
on page two he declares how he manage to start. 
 

please don’t forget engine has cop direct spark with trigger offset +272 (with oem triggers)

Edited April 3, 2020 by Knox

[Adamw]

2 minutes ago, Knox said:

Normally Tooth Count on T1 trigger wheel on exhaust camshaft is 12, you write 6 and I tried 6, is it correct and why ? can you please inform me about it?

Sorry it should be set to 12, I must have been half asleep when I wrote that.

[Knox]

11 hours ago, Adamw said:

Sorry it should be set to 12, I must have been half asleep when I wrote that.

I tried and engine won’t start. I mean its not backfiring also, just cranking and see around 190rpm on cranking. You mentioned -233 trigger offset does it cop setup change this? Because without cop setup trigger offset is aroun 110 and with cop setup 272 (with oem triggers). It looks like on the picture there is 13 points on cam gear(one is right behind the sensor pickup which not seen) but there of them close to each other and middle one is there I think for cam gear postion so I don’t think magnet inside. T1r writes this to me "The ecu configuration for this sensor setup will depend on which ecu you're using. This will work with any ecu that can accept a hall signal (square wave) on the trigger inputs. The "crank" trigger signal will see 6 pulses per engine revolution (12 per cycle, 2 revolutions per engine cycle. The "cam" trigger signal will only see 1 pulse per engine cycle. There should also be a setting somewhere in the ecu that will ask you "cam" trigger position relative to TDC. You'll have to find out exactly what your ecu is looking for, for this parameter, and then measure to get the number in the ballpark. "

I’m sorry but I’m really stuck and need help. 

[Adamw]

25 minutes ago, Knox said:

It looks like on the picture there is 13 points on cam gear(one is right behind the sensor pickup which not seen) but there of them close to each other and middle one is there I think for cam gear postion so I don’t think magnet inside.

The sensor is a dual pole type - it can sense a north or south magnet.  so 1 of the magnets are facing one way (say north out) this is the sync signal and then 12 evenly spaced magnets are facing the opposite way (South Pole out) these are your trigger 1 “teeth”.

To determine the offset you just need to put a timing light on it and adjust it until you’re timing marks line up.  It is explained in the help file under trigger calibration.

[remski2]

I've noticed that you are dropping your battery voltage starting at 4k rpm. (Alternator belt slipping ?)

Also looking at your dwell table I only see commanding 1.7 or 1.8 ms between 13 and 14v.

The only way I see you are getting 2+ms on the dwell is if you dropping below 12v.

Hope this helps.

 

 

 

 

One more thing.. you hitting your RPM limit as well as your MAP limit right after that.

 

 

[remski2]

Well.. there is more .. 

Your Injector duty is above 100% (107.5% to be exact)

I'd upload a screenshot but I guess I've reached my limit. 

 

[Knox]

2 hours ago, remski2 said:

Well.. there is more .. 

Your Injector duty is above 100% (107.5% to be exact)

I'd upload a screenshot but I guess I've reached my limit. 

 

Thank you for your input. Probably alternator belt was slipping like you said. For injector duty cycle, log is older than calibration date because of I forgot to record the log but engine is misfiring even when we use two fuel pump at around 78-82% duty cycle. So we changed the trigger now but because of curfew when can not even start the engine normally it backfires now but we will solve this. Thank you for showing me alternator voltage drop probably its the issue and we changed the triggers. 
I will update this topic as soon as we solved all issues for may be other people need the settings.