EMP pump CAN control and staged fuel pumps ?

[oversteer]

Got the intercooler on, plumbed and system filled with coolant, but don't seem to be able to get EMP pump to make a noise !

 

I have noticed one issue with the CAN set-up, the EMP pump is on CAN2...set-up looks like its all on CAN1.

Can you have a squiz at this for me please Adam ?

You may notice in tune I have a switch on DI9 that activates the 12v "run" wire to the pump through Aux17 & Virt Aux7 .... this also doesn't make the pump run, although it may be the case that if the pump see's can data it ignores this wire power OR it needs it also to start/power up, tried both ways....pumps silent !

EG33Thunder Start Mod.pclr

[Adamw]

Attached map with EMP moved to CAN 2.  Also about AUx 17, I dont know what type of signal the controller needs but Aux 17 is a low side drive - that is is can only supply decent current to ground.  It only has a very weak pull-up to 12V so may not be enough for the controller.  Put a multimeter on that pin and see what voltage is coming out when active.

257531303_EG33ThunderStartModA.pclr

[oversteer]

Ok thanks, have yet to try it fully but i have confirmed that the EMP pump works if i give it 12v off the battery....and the doc's say used a 5A fuse on that power wire, will put a relay in.

Ran out of time to do much else, but for the hell of it i cranked the engine..... I did get it started but it needed some throttle and didn't seem to running on 6 cylinders !

Cranking sounds even now, so by ear it sounds all cylinders have even compression and i have previously confirmed/tested all injector and coil wiring as working fine....took a log file, can you see anything obviously wrong from that ?

On another note, how do i see and log the CAN EGT's, can't see them in log or how to add....

Cheers

Log 2019-10-1 3;20;09 pm.llg

[Adamw]

26 minutes ago, oversteer said:

on another note, how do i see and log the CAN EGT's, can't see them in log or how to add....

There is no CAN EGT's set up in your tune.

I dont see anything obvious wrong in your log, but 25% throttle just to get it to 2400RPM suggests something is not right.   Did you check base timing?

[oversteer]

Ok the CAN egt stuff has got lost somewhere, was in there early on.... will set it up again.

Yes base timing was checked, i had to use 80 degree offset to get it right, from all googling on the subject others have used 50-60.... I even pulled plug on number 1 used a piston stop tool and confirmed timing mark on balancer was correct...if anything it was out by less than 1 degree.

Seemed to not be running on all 6 cylinders, difference in lambda 1 and 2 might support that, maybe all injectors aren't opening....

[cj]

There is something wrong with your charging circuit as well. It sits at the same ~12.6v at 2500rpm as it does at 0rpm. 

 

[oversteer]

Yeah alt isn't on car, but 25amp battery charger is !

[oversteer]

Whoo hoo it runs ! Helps if you have the firing order correct...which it was a few versions of the tune file ago but got messed up along the way !

Damn it sounds angry lol, cams are bigger on paper than anything i have ever seen or you can buy from the usual suspects for a subaru...200mph 1/4 mile cams in the right car

I can not however see any of the CAN devices/data EMP pump is unresponsive, and the DIY autotune EGT-CAN box isn't visable after i re-added  it to can config, i have confirmed wiring to both devices, seems right..... took a log file which as far as i can tell included all the can stuff...

Any clues Adam ?

 

[cj]

Can you check the CAN wiring has no breaks or shorts with a multimeter? This looks not connected.

[Adamw]

For the CAN EGT, I suspect the CAN ID format will need to be set to Normal rather than extended, so try that.  

As for the EMP I dont see anything wrong in the set up.  Has it got a terminating resistor at the end of the bus?  Some of the agricultural stuff is fairly fussy with requiring proper termination.

You could also try changing the ID to 418324643 which would force it to use the "legacy protocol" - just in case you've been sold a pre 2017 model that doesnt have the new std SAE message format.

 

 

[oversteer]

Ok CAN EGT works now, uses a 2.5mm stereo plug for power and can, which fits badly, if the circuit board slides away inside the case stops the plug from contacting...

Measured CAN2, which only has the EMP pump on the end of it, 53K Ohm....

I still get the 3 warnings in red on both buses, but no error counter on CAN1.

I will be adding another CAN device...went and ordered a LINK MXS Strada dash..... which CAN bus is it going to play nice with the others on?

[oversteer]

So I guess my answer to CAN2 not working was it was 53K with a device on it, added a 120 Ohm resistor at pump end and I think the bus is happy and pump visible, although I can't control its speed.

EMP pump needs that 12v IGN wire energised before CAN2 stops throwing errors, but pump just runs at full speed, changing conditions on Aux4 or DC and freq does nothing.

Is this log file going to have any clues as to whats going on ?

emp1.llg

[cj]

If you stick a multimeter on CAN2 with all devices plugged in, you should see ~60 ohms. If you see 120 Ohm it means you only have 1x resistor installed, and if you see much higher numbers it probably means you only have the devices connected (eg its seeing continuity through the pump controller only, with who knows how much resistance (apparently 53K). There should be 1x resistor in the link ECU however, so the highest resistance you should be able to see is ~120 Ohm, regardless of what is connected to the other end. Can you describe how you have connected CAN2 to the pump - eg which wires/pins you connected at the ECU end and if you have any other joins or devices connected between the pump and the ECU?

 

[oversteer]

Ok, the docs say the G4+ has a resistor terminating the bus at that end, the EMP pump is the only thing on CAN2  connected by a piece of 20awg screened and twisted tefzel wire to the DTM plug on the pump, screen is connect to shield pin on link end, i have then added a resistor on ~50mm wire on the back of the DTM plug, CAN H and L are connected as they should be.

Back probing the plug i get 59.5Ohm on CAN2, I can see the runtime values for CAN drop the error count when the pump is powered up now, just can't get the pump to change speed, need to be able to stiff CAN messages maybe to see whats going on ?

How do i see the runtime values from a log file like your screen shot above ?

 

[cj]

press f12 to see that screen. There are some tabs up the top of the window, you are probably most interested in the CAN tab. On one of the other tabs will be the aux4 & DI12 output signals you are looking to use for pump control as well.

59.x Ohms sounds like a good number and suggests both ends are wired correctly. 

[Adamw]

If you attach your latest tune I can add a a receive stream into it to see if we can get any diagnostics or status messages from the pump.

Did you try the legacy CAN ID that I posted earlier and the original one?

[oversteer]

I did try the legacy ID before i terminated the bus correctly, then went back to the original one when i had changed the wiring etc....

Tune file attached

EG33ThunderRunIU.pclr

...another question, I had the car running today and got the temp up a bit, and to make it idle I added numbers to the idle base position(+10 everywhere) table as it needed more throttle to hold ~900rpm, afr's(.85) etc looked close enough for a stable idle but it just needed more throttle and it idled smooth, was this the right thing to do ?

[cj]

17 hours ago, oversteer said:

another question, I had the car running today and got the temp up a bit, and to make it idle I added numbers to the idle base position(+10 everywhere) table as it needed more throttle to hold ~900rpm, afr's(.85) etc looked close enough for a stable idle but it just needed more throttle and it idled smooth, was this the right thing to do

yes with a but... That base idle table has Engine coolant temp on the top axis, so you should only need to change the cell that matches the current ECT. What I do is wait until the car is dead cold. Start it up, open the base idle table, then touch absolutely nothing until the ECT gets to exactly 10/20/30 deg etc as listed on the top axis. Once it gets to the center of the cell (so the coolant temp matches exactly), bump up/down just that cell value until the idle is what you want, then sit there until it goes up another 10 deg. 

[oversteer]

Yeah i was doing it as it warmed up, even when it got to 70 it needed +10 to idle right.... needs a bit of throttle with these cams !!

 

 

[oversteer]

Ok back to the EMP pump control, it seems I must use the legacy id otherwise there is lots of errors on can 2, with legacy id its all green.

But i still don't seem to be able to change pump speed.

Took a log during which i changed Aux out condition to turn it on and off, and changed frequency in PWM table from 10-100.

Is it possible to get some status from the pump Adam ?

 

[Adamw]

Try this one, I have added some receive parameters to see if we are getting any comms with the controller.  I had to delete some of your dash channels to fit it all in.

Try a short log with the config as it in the attached map (this uses the same receive ID as the Motec guy), then change the ID on CAN 2 channel 3 to 419365664 and do another short log - this is the legacy recieve ID.

 

 

EG33Lib2 with EWP recieve.pclr

[oversteer]

Ok i added that stream and took 2 logs, i added that new can stuff to my current tune file which i have attached also.... some of the dash frames that you removed i was using to send data to dash... replied with dash config in my other dash thread.

 

emptest 419365664.llg emptest1.llg

EG33Lib2.1.pclr

[Adamw]

Nup, that didnt help at all.  It is all just coming through as zeros in both logs , I suspect that means there is no comms.

Here is a CAN sniffer connected to a Thunder with your tune loaded in.  Notice with Aux 4 set to "50%/Hz" the outgoing CAN matches perfectly the last example given in section 2.1.5 for "command motor default direct 50%".

This is using the legacy ID:

 

And this is using the ID as per the Motec guy:

 

So I dont know, it seems the ECU is doing the same as what your guy says should work.  It might be worth trying at 500K and 250K as J1939 usually works at those speeds (the manual says 1MBit is ok though).

[oversteer]

Going to dyno this afternoon so I was checking things over, I noticed that 2nd fuel pump was not turning on when IDC went over 15% like its configured, as in example from Adam above.

Can be seen in log and tune & tune file here ;

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1NwGuFPcbtIPSnDFMVbRRbMY0Hgye5Q2N

Near end of log the IDC is ~25%, but 2nd fuel pump Aux14 does not turn on..its set to Aux13 = 0n and IDC > 15%...

 

Playing around with this it seems the IDC% condition works, but the Aux Value1 = ON for the higher numbered aux's doesn't do anything, if i set it to 3 or 7 it works, but 12 on-wards and nothing !

What am I doing wrong ?

For now I have dropped the Aux Value condition and just use IDC%>, which works.

[Adamw]

3 hours ago, oversteer said:

Going to dyno this afternoon so I was checking things over, I noticed that 2nd fuel pump was not turning on when IDC went over 15% like its configured, as in example from Adam above.

Can be seen in log and tune & tune file here ;

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1NwGuFPcbtIPSnDFMVbRRbMY0Hgye5Q2N

Near end of log the IDC is ~25%, but 2nd fuel pump Aux14 does not turn on..its set to Aux13 = 0n and IDC > 15%...

 

Playing around with this it seems the IDC% condition works, but the Aux Value1 = ON for the higher numbered aux's doesn't do anything, if i set it to 3 or 7 it works, but 12 on-wards and nothing !

What am I doing wrong ?

For now I have dropped the Aux Value condition and just use IDC%>, which works.

Yep you are right, I suspect that might be a bug.  I will get it reported to engineering.

What you could do as a workaround for the meantime is set Virtual aux 1 as "Fuel pump".  Then set aux 13 as GP output with condition + virtual aux 1 on.  Then you can use that same virtual aux 1 condition (instead of aux 13) for all your other fuel pumps.