gunnerthesnowman Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 Hi ,i am new to the site and i am hoping to get some help , i am using a v-88 ( marine , sealed unit ) on my turbo charge 4 stroke snowmobile , i have two maps builded , one is for 90kpa on the baro and the other is for 80 kpa on the baro , how do i get the Vi-pec to transition from one map to the other evenly thoughtout the 10 kpa differents . my maps are made up useing MGP in the X axis and RPM,s in the Y axis. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayhall Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 All Vipec ECU have an internal barometric sensor. When you have MGP as the axis of the fuel table the ECU automatically adjusts for changes in barometric pressure. You do not have to do anything as far as tuning or extra tables. Ray. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnerthesnowman Posted May 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 All Vipec ECU have an internal barometric sensor. When you have MGP as the axis of the fuel table the ECU automatically adjusts for changes in barometric pressure. You do not have to do anything as far as tuning or extra tables. Ray. Hi Ray , i can see what you are saying that the ECU automatically adjust the MGP axis for barometric pressure , but in my case the turbo is reacting ( spooling ) differently due to the thinner air , it is not moving as much air off boost ( needs less fuel ) then spools into boost earlyer in the RPM range ,( at 90kpa baro it spools into boost around 6000RPM,s , at 80kpa it spools into boost around 5000RMP,s ) If i try to run my map made at 90 kpa baro up in the mountains , when the baro pressure drops , the sled runs rich off boost and then stalls as it comes into boost , due to being to lean , OR if i try to run my map made at 80kpa baro at home (baro at home is 90kpa ) it runs to lean off boost and rich in the 5000-5500 range . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnerthesnowman Posted May 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 Anything !!! , we still have snow for abit , would like to get this worked out so i don,t have to spend next season tuning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayhall Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 The Vipec will automatically adjust for baro pressures when not on boost. Must be something not setup in your map. Please email me a map. [email protected] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnerthesnowman Posted May 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2011 Maps sent , thanks The Vipec will automatically adjust for baro pressures when not on boost. Must be something not setup in your map. Please email me a map. [email protected] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnerthesnowman Posted May 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2011 All Vipec ECU have an internal barometric sensor. When you have MGP as the axis of the fuel table the ECU automatically adjusts for changes in barometric pressure. You do not have to do anything as far as tuning or extra tables. Ray. Hi Ray , what should the barometric sensor be set to , MARINE OR STANDARD , what is the differents between these two setting ???? Mine is set on marine!!! Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayhall Posted May 15, 2011 Report Share Posted May 15, 2011 If you have a marine ECU it must be set to marine. If not then standard. Marine ECU are very heavy and have a port on the connector end of the case for the baro sensor. Ray. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnerthesnowman Posted May 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2011 If you have a marine ECU it must be set to marine. If not then standard. Marine ECU are very heavy and have a port on the connector end of the case for the baro sensor. Ray. Thanks Ray , yes it is a marine unit , so it is set correctly , looking forward to what you find out when you run may map on the engine semulator , as i mentioned before the two things i see that happens to make the map to be changed so much is , the turbo spools into boost lower in the RPM,s and the fuel pressure drops off as the barometric pressure drops ( the fuel pressure regulator does not compensate for barometric pressure changes , if you set it to 42 psi at 90 kpa baro , at 80 kpa baro it will run 37 psi ) Thanks again . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayhall Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 After a lot of looking at maps and data logs, and discussions with the engineers I have an answer. I was never told by the engineers the way the baro correction works when you have the Open loop AFR table enabled. Because of this the baro correction is not working correctly on your engines. I have told Jim the setup for baro correction is this... Fuel Equation Load=MAP AFR Table = On Fuel table Y axis = MGP Ignition table Y axis = MAP AFR table Y axis = MAP. When it must be.... Fuel Equation Load=MAP AFR Table = On Fuel table Y axis = MGP Ignition table Y axis = MAP AFR table Y axis = MGP. The difference is the AFR table Y axis is MGP rather then MAP. I said in the past there was no IAT fuel correction in the maps. I was wrong, you are using the 4D table for this. It would be less confusing if you just used the IAT Fuel correction. This is located under Fuel -> Fuel Corrections -> IAT Fuel Correction. I have sample settings for this table if you need them. So what this means is the engines need to be re-tuned so you have one map that suits all altitudes. I am sorry about this. Ray. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnerthesnowman Posted May 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 Thanks Ray for all your time on this , i which i would of come on hear and asked this months ago , so with this done , just retune the engine , (1)and it should make the kind of changes automaticly that you see in my two maps i sent you !! (2) what does the open loop AFR table do!!! , (3)whats will happen down the road once i have my map retuned , if i want to run it in close loop for off boost for fine tuning. (4)Also i asked in my other post what mods have to be done to my ECU (serial # lower than 10,000 ) to get it to run the 4.8.0 soft/firmware so i can run my AIM dash on the con+/- feeds , so i can have both the dash and PC connected at the same time . Is it just programming or adding somthing in side , remember it is a sealed marine unit , what are we looking at for cost to do whatever is needed , (5) and yes please send me / Jim the settings for the IAT fuel correction table , i will talk to Jim about the need for this , so i will not waste time tuning not having the ECU set up right . This is a learning curve for me too. (6)For close loop lambda , i take it that i should set to WB close loop V-2 , if so under gain control table what should my (1) AFR error settings be (2) close loop control rate (Hz) be Also (3) Map delta lockout Once i have a good map made , i may try running in CLL for 2000-6500 rpm,s up to 40kpa to see if it helps clean the low end up a bit !! Sorry for all the ??,s but i losted most of the season tuning because of this baro correction not being set up. PS. I thank you again for having this forum and taking your time coming on hear to answer ?,s , great product support . Curtis After a lot of looking at maps and data logs, and discussions with the engineers I have an answer. I was never told by the engineers the way the baro correction works when you have the Open loop AFR table enabled. Because of this the baro correction is not working correctly on your engines. I have told Jim the setup for baro correction is this... Fuel Equation Load=MAP AFR Table = On Fuel table Y axis = MGP Ignition table Y axis = MAP AFR table Y axis = MAP. When it must be.... Fuel Equation Load=MAP AFR Table = On Fuel table Y axis = MGP Ignition table Y axis = MAP AFR table Y axis = MGP. The difference is the AFR table Y axis is MGP rather then MAP. I said in the past there was no IAT fuel correction in the maps. I was wrong, you are using the 4D table for this. It would be less confusing if you just used the IAT Fuel correction. This is located under Fuel -> Fuel Corrections -> IAT Fuel Correction. I have sample settings for this table if you need them. So what this means is the engines need to be re-tuned so you have one map that suits all altitudes. I am sorry about this. Ray. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayhall Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 1. Turn off the 4D table and turn on the IAT Fuel correction table. Select MGP for Y axis of Open Loop AFR table. Turn off the Ignition table 2, as the values in this table cannot suit any engine. Turn off the 5D ignition table, no values in the table so it not being used. Change Trigger 2 filter level to 2. Retune the engine before running it again. 2. The open loop table is a lookup table used by the ECU to know the air fuel ratios the engine should run. This table is open loop and does not require any narrow or wideband 02 sensor signal. The ECU uses math to know how to correct the air fuel ratio. If you search on this forum will find this discussed many times. 3. If the whole fuel table is tuned, the tune will be correct no matter what boost you run. No 02 sensor is needed to correct for more boost as your tuner would have tuned for higher boost. 4. Your ECU is a marine version. It is full of epoxy and cannot be pulled apart to do the modification for CAN. 5. I will send Jim the table settings. 6. You should not need to use Closed Loop Wideband if the engine is tuned correctly. To set it up CLC Wideband, the tuner needs to find the best settings for your engine. Ray. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnerthesnowman Posted May 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 Thanks Ray , TALKED TO JIM TODAY , MADE THE CHANGES , HEADING OUT Monday for 2 or 3 days of riding to remap , will let you know how it works out. quote="rayhall"]1. Turn off the 4D table and turn on the IAT Fuel correction table. Select MGP for Y axis of Open Loop AFR table. Turn off the Ignition table 2, as the values in this table cannot suit any engine. Turn off the 5D ignition table, no values in the table so it not being used. Change Trigger 2 filter level to 2. Retune the engine before running it again. 2. The open loop table is a lookup table used by the ECU to know the air fuel ratios the engine should run. This table is open loop and does not require any narrow or wideband 02 sensor signal. The ECU uses math to know how to correct the air fuel ratio. If you search on this forum will find this discussed many times. 3. If the whole fuel table is tuned, the tune will be correct no matter what boost you run. No 02 sensor is needed to correct for more boost as your tuner would have tuned for higher boost. 4. Your ECU is a marine version. It is full of epoxy and cannot be pulled apart to do the modification for CAN. 5. I will send Jim the table settings. 6. You should not need to use Closed Loop Wideband if the engine is tuned correctly. To set it up CLC Wideband, the tuner needs to find the best settings for your engine. Ray. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnerthesnowman Posted May 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 26, 2011 Hi Ray , when making the changes , i notice that Jim did not have it set up the way you said you told him to, he had it set up like this Fuel Equation Load=MAP AFR Table = On Fuel table Y axis = MGP Ignition table Y axis = MGP /// You told him to set this to MAP AFR table Y axis = MAP I Have set it up the way you said it should be Why would he have it set up this way and what kind of problems would of it caused me in tuning ! After a lot of looking at maps and data logs, and discussions with the engineers I have an answer. I was never told by the engineers the way the baro correction works when you have the Open loop AFR table enabled. Because of this the baro correction is not working correctly on your engines. I have told Jim the setup for baro correction is this... Fuel Equation Load=MAP AFR Table = On Fuel table Y axis = MGP Ignition table Y axis = MAP AFR table Y axis = MAP. When it must be.... Fuel Equation Load=MAP AFR Table = On Fuel table Y axis = MGP Ignition table Y axis = MAP AFR table Y axis = MGP. The difference is the AFR table Y axis is MGP rather then MAP. I said in the past there was no IAT fuel correction in the maps. I was wrong, you are using the 4D table for this. It would be less confusing if you just used the IAT Fuel correction. This is located under Fuel -> Fuel Corrections -> IAT Fuel Correction. I have sample settings for this table if you need them. So what this means is the engines need to be re-tuned so you have one map that suits all altitudes. I am sorry about this. Ray. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayhall Posted May 26, 2011 Report Share Posted May 26, 2011 You can use MAP or MGP for the ignition table. MGP will adjust the timing a little based on the values in your ignition table. Ray. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnerthesnowman Posted May 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 26, 2011 So using MAP or MGP for the ignition table Y axis , will not afect baro correction !! You can use MAP or MGP for the ignition table. MGP will adjust the timing a little based on the values in your ignition table. Ray. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayhall Posted May 27, 2011 Report Share Posted May 27, 2011 The only thing selecting MGP for ignition will be move the timing based on baro. As I have no idea what your ignition timing map looks like the best option is to just leave it on MAP. Normaly you do not need to change the timing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnerthesnowman Posted November 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 All Vipec ECU have an internal barometric sensor. When you have MGP as the axis of the fuel table the ECU automatically adjusts for changes in barometric pressure. You do not have to do anything as far as tuning or extra tables. Ray. Hi , could someone explain what/how the vipec does the compensating for barometric change , ray says it does this automatically , what does it do ,he also says it only does this off boost , just trying to understand this unit better . Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashesman Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 As an example for an NA engine: Ignition table is typically spanned off MAP. The reason for this is that MGP is 0 when the MAP is at atmospheric pressure. So, if you had an ignition table spanned off MGP, and the WOT row had 20 degrees, then 20 degrees would be used at WOT (0 MGP) under any barometric conditions. Using MAP instead means that the ignition numbers selected from the table will alter with barometric pressure. Fuel is the opposite. You want the same row to be selected at WOT under any atmospheric pressure as VE does not change with atmospheric pressure. You get your fuel barometric correction due to the fact that the MAP value (used in the fuel equation) has changed. So in short for almost all applications use: Fuel equation Load=MAP Fuel table Y axis = MGP Ignition table Y axis = MAP For more complex situations such as multi throttle and big cam engines then that is slightly different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnerthesnowman Posted November 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 As an example for an NA engine: Ignition table is typically spanned off MAP. The reason for this is that MGP is 0 when the MAP is at atmospheric pressure. So, if you had an ignition table spanned off MGP, and the WOT row had 20 degrees, then 20 degrees would be used at WOT (0 MGP) under any barometric conditions. Using MAP instead means that the ignition numbers selected from the table will alter with barometric pressure. Fuel is the opposite. You want the same row to be selected at WOT under any atmospheric pressure as VE does not change with atmospheric pressure. You get your fuel barometric correction due to the fact that the MAP value (used in the fuel equation) has changed.So in short for almost all applications use: Fuel equation Load=MAP Fuel table Y axis = MGP Ignition table Y axis = MAP For more complex situations such as multi throttle and big cam engines then that is slightly different. Top -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Report this postReply with quoteRe: Altitude compensation by rayhall » Thu May 12, 2011 2:07 pm The Vipec will automatically adjust for baro pressures when not on boost. _____________________________________________________________________________________ ***So this fuel barometic correction due to the MAP value changing ( used in the fuel equation ) Is this correction only for off boost as Ray says Or would it be working thoughout the whole fuel map , i would think it would effect the whole map Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnerthesnowman Posted November 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 Seem to be some miss understanding on how this works!!! As an example for an NA engine: Ignition table is typically spanned off MAP. The reason for this is that MGP is 0 when the MAP is at atmospheric pressure. So, if you had an ignition table spanned off MGP, and the WOT row had 20 degrees, then 20 degrees would be used at WOT (0 MGP) under any barometric conditions. Using MAP instead means that the ignition numbers selected from the table will alter with barometric pressure.. ____________________________________________________________ by rayhall » Thu May 26, 2011 11:42 pm The only thing selecting MGP for ignition will be move the timing based on baro no idea what your ignition timing map looks like the best option is to just leave it on MAP. Normaly you do not need to change the timing. _________________________________________________________________________________________ Fuel is the opposite. You want the same row to be selected at WOT under any atmospheric pressure as VE does not change with atmospheric pressure. You get your fuel barometric correction due to the fact that the MAP value (used in the fuel equation) has changed. So in short for almost all applications use: Fuel equation Load=MAP Fuel table Y axis = MGP Ignition table Y axis = MAP For more complex situations such as multi throttle and big cam engines then that is slightly different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnerthesnowman Posted November 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 TTT Just trying to understand how this works , which is correct Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted November 14, 2011 Report Share Posted November 14, 2011 Ill get Ashley back on for an answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashesman Posted November 14, 2011 Report Share Posted November 14, 2011 If you have your fuel table spanned off MGP then you get barometric correction all the time, not just off boost. There is no distinction between on and off boost, it is just a different MAP pressure. As the ECU is very configurable, there are many options for how the fuel calculation and mapping is configured. It is very hard to explain in general as it depends on how you configure the ECU as to how barometric correction is applied. Here are some points to note: - When the fuel equation is on Load = MAP, there is NO barometric correction applied by the fuel equation. - Having your fuel table spanned off MGP is what gives you barometric correction as MGP is a function of barometric pressure. - If MGP is used to span the fuel table and your engine is tuned properly then you get barometric correction everywhere. Please ask specific questions about your exact application or give me examples to explain and I will try answer them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest |646| Posted November 15, 2011 Report Share Posted November 15, 2011 This is my specific application: BMW M3 S50B32 turbo. This is ITB engine. Fuel Equation: Load=MAP Main fuel table is spanned off TP as this gives the best results i've seen so far for turbo ITB engines. AFR Target table is spanned off MGP. Is this enough for baro correction? Ignition table is spanned off MGP so no worries there. My understanding until now is that i dont have any altitude compensation for fuel, right? How can i achieve it? 4D table spanned off BAP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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