Guest |260| Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 Hi Guys, Car is BMW E30 M3 / S14 engine Vipec V44, sequential fuel and spark. COP via E36 M3 coils Cam sensor is BMW S38 Crank Sensor is a common 1990s Ford Escort sensor (ACDELCO Part # 2132414) The car was running perfectly when I pulled it into the garage end of last race season. I went to start it today and no start. It has been having some difficulty starting in colder temps (50 F) in the past. Today, after a no start I have tried fresh plugs, also injecting extra fuel. Seems to be a no spark condition. Its not making any sign of firing. The fresh plugs have no spark indication. Connected to computer, I see no RPM while cranking. I have not touched any element of the engine or ECU of this car since I shut it off last October. Battery is fully charged and doing the cranking attached to battery charger. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hic Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 Do the spark test. If u have spark, the problem is crank sensor ornwiring. If not, then check the voltage on the coils. Easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apex Speed Tech Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 Jimmy, I'm happy to go over it with you online when you have a moment - the likely cause is a crank sensor issue of some sort. Have you been able to verify that the other sensor inputs read reasonable values? -Neel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest |260| Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 Thanks Guys. I just did the spark test. All spark plugs verify fire. I never used that function before. Great tool. Odd, that it fires in reverse order (#1 fires cyl #4 and onward). I should say again, this car is tuned and was running perfectly when I drove it into my garage at the end of last season (October). All it did was sit on a lift for 4 months while I worked on brakes and some body parts. I have noted solid connection and reseated crank sensor and cam sensor plugs. No visual damage to either. I am going to swap the crank sensor with a spare and see if that makes any difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest |260| Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 swapped crank sensor, no change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest |260| Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 I have unplugged crank sensor wiring and inspected it no damage. I have confirmed continuity back to the main Vipec mass connector for trigger 1 and shield. All other inputs seem to be reporting normally Intake Air Temp 13C (ambient) Coolant temp 13 C WBO2 online TPS online and reading System voltage OK (car is on a battery charger) Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dave-Kriedeman Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 Do you still see no RPM on your laptop when cranking the engine. Do you have any trigger error counts. Have you tried adjusting the trigger arming threshold voltages lower at cranking speed to see if you get any RPM signal. Is the sensor Mag reluctor or Hall effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest |260| Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 Do you still see no RPM on your laptop when cranking the engine. Do you have any trigger error counts. Have you tried adjusting the trigger arming threshold voltages lower at cranking speed to see if you get any RPM signal. Is the sensor Mag reluctor or Hall effect. No RPM shown while cranking It doesnt say anywhere I have trigger errors. Where do I check for this? Trigger 1 Arming @ 0 cell, currently set at 0.5, I tried it down to minimum of 0.2 with no change. 0.5 is where it has been when the car was running. Trigger 1 is Reluctor Filter - 3 (have tried reducing to 1) Multi Tooth Posn - Crank Tooth Count - 36 Missing Teeth - 1 Trigger 2: Optical / Hall Filter - 1 Trigger 2 Pullup - Off Trigger 2 Edge - Rising Sync Mode - Cam Pulse 1x These are the settings that it was at when tuned and running well. Thanks for your help. Cheers jimmy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Are you running any form of ECU hold power? It might be the ECU is thinking its in hold power mode which in turn locks out the triggers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest |260| Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Are you running any form of ECU hold power? It might be the ECU is thinking its in hold power mode which in turn locks out the triggers. I am not familiar with that function. I do not believe so, but if you tell me where to look I will check. Is it possible that there is some setting we may have missed in tuning that correlates to ambient temps under say 15C that may disable the spark? I have not changed anything since the car was tuned. It spent an entire race season starting and running perfectly. The only time it ever had trouble starting was on colder morning temps, but it did start after several attempts. This has never happened before. Thanks for your help. Cheers jimmy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest |59| Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Do you have access to an ocsilloscope? If you do, scope the crank sensor while cranking. Engine Hold Power is normally only used for stepper motor kind of idle speed control valve. I believe that you have a three wire Bosch idle valve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest |260| Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Do you have access to an ocsilloscope? If you do, scope the crank sensor while cranking. Engine Hold Power is normally only used for stepper motor kind of idle speed control valve. I believe that you have a three wire Bosch idle valve. No I do not have a O-scope, well at least that I own, I'll start looking around to see if I can borrow / rent one. Might be time to look for a used one to own. I will look into the software and see. I no longer use an ICV at all so nothing connected to it. Literally all my inputs are: Crank Trigger (36-1) Cam Sensor Coolant Temp Inlet Air Temp Throttle Pos WBO2 MAP input Outputs are 4 Injectors 4 Coils We are not using any traction control, anti lag, knock controller, etc. Just start and run the engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest |260| Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 I figured I should also post, my computer is running on 4.8.1 which was current when we tuned it. Anything in that firmware version that may lead to this issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest |260| Posted March 13, 2012 Report Share Posted March 13, 2012 Bump. Any thoughts on doing a firmware update and reloading the map? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest |129| Posted March 13, 2012 Report Share Posted March 13, 2012 I wouldn't update the firmware until you figure out what's wrong. It will just introduce additional factors to the mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest |260| Posted March 13, 2012 Report Share Posted March 13, 2012 I tried my spare Vipec computer - No change. Still no RPM signal, thus no spark. During cranking it keeps logging low voltage errors AN 1, AN 2 , AN 4. The car is hooked to a large shop battery charger, so its got plenty of volts while cranking. When I try to see what those parameters are in the Parameters section they are all set at 65550.0 There do not appear to be any settings for those in the parameters section. Could this be effecting the no spark? Disabling ignition? What should the setting be for these? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest |260| Posted March 13, 2012 Report Share Posted March 13, 2012 Tried my spare Vipec V44, no change. During cranking I keep getting "Low Voltage Error AN 1, AN 2, AN 4). The car is connected to a large shop battery charger while cranking and the battery is fully charged. It have plenty of cranking power. Could these be causing any issues? When I look into the "Parameters" tab and then to Voltage, then to AN 1, 2, 4 there is not much entered there and it looks like the ranges are all set to 65550.0 That doesnt seem right, but I dont know what it should be. If anyone would be willing to look through my map for any settings that could be causing this I'm more than happy to email it. I'm just not good enough or knowledgable enough in this software to properly evaluate what I am looking at in all those parameter boxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest |260| Posted March 14, 2012 Report Share Posted March 14, 2012 I have also verified continuity from Trigger 2 connector (Cam sensor) to the Vipec mass connector. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest |129| Posted March 14, 2012 Report Share Posted March 14, 2012 what are the fault settings under analog inputs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest |260| Posted March 14, 2012 Report Share Posted March 14, 2012 what are the fault settings under analog inputs? Would I be able to post or email my map to you instead of transposing all the settings? I would really appreciate another set of eyes on it. There has to be some setting somewhere thats wrong,,, unless I have two dead ECUs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted March 15, 2012 Report Share Posted March 15, 2012 Hi If you would like to email the map to [email protected] I can run it on the bench and check for any thing that might stop it running. If you could also log the car on the PC whilst its cranking and send this also would be a great help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest |260| Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Thanks Simon, I will email ASAP. I would greatly appreciate you looking through it for me and making sure all the parameters are set correctly. There have been a new development,,, It Runs!!! Well sorta. I got some phone time with Neel from Apex my ECU provider (who I have to say again,,, is the f*kin man!!). Neel installed a Team Viewer software on my car laptop when he tuned the car so that he can remotely access and change my computer from wherever he is. First up he switched it to crank only, Batch fire. Car started right up. So we now know it was a sync issue with the cam sensor. He then reconnected cam sensor / sequential and then looked into a parameter I didnt even know existed to see the cam sensor signal. It was very low (too low). Car did not start after he re-set back to sequential. So we now know its a cam sensor / sync issue. I have back probed the cam sensor, I have 5v between pins 1 & 3 as I should and have alternating 5v - 0v between pins 2 & 3 as it should. So it seems next up is something in the Vipec computer or software that is losing the cam signal. It feels SO great to have at least narrowed it down to some quadrant of the problem. I know if I had to drive tomorrow,,, at least it runs batch / wasted. Next up figuring what is going on with the cam sensor signal. Neel had to jump before we got any farther, but he got me that far. I back probed the cam sensor the easy way at the cam sensor plug just as a quickie to verity it was getting volts and it was opening and closing. Today I will get into that more. I will back probe the other end of the connection at the Vipec (a much bigger PITA) to verify its still happening at the other end. I have to say again and again,,, Neel at Apex is an invaluable resource after the sale both as a trouble shooter and a tuner. I am sure I am well past him in support $ / hr vs. any profit he made on my ECU / harness sales. The guy is awesome. So, Simon, or anyone else,,, ever have cam sensor signal strength issues issues with the S38 cam sensor on a BMW S engine? I have tried two actual sensors with the same results. Simon if you can look at my cam sensor / sync settings in particular and offer any changes or suggestions I would greatly appreciate it. cheers jimmy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsh Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 Have you tried with Cam level as sync? I just fired a M44 that needed Cam level to run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GPs Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 Hi Jimmypet, have you looked at runtime values. Open software look along top,click on tuning,click on runtime values and then look at ignition errors etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GPs Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 sorry did not see second page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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