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Sutkale

Some trigger issues

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Thanks Dave for watching! :P

4D fuel is waiting to be tuned. Fueling is consistent with lower boost levels, but appearing on a bit on richer side than targeted on higher boost levels and I´m planning to fix that with 4D tune. So far having seen any issues with lower numbers set on main fuel table - ain´t they only reference numbers for VE calculation? As adding the charge temp tuning option are we heading to a real VE-tuning later on?

And yes, I am running CDI which results a flat table.

As the trigger arming voltage, setting the voltage on higher level do not really help, it actually gets worse for a reason or another. We have to remember that the issue here is trigger errors occur on standstill revving and on 1st and 2nd gear when rpms rice fast. When running on 3rd and higher gears I get error free runs as the rpm ramp rate is slower.

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Hi Sutkale,

No problems for keeping an eye on your post.

I forgot that the error counter only climbed during low rpm, with quick rev rate.

ARE YOU SHARING TRIGGER 1 SIGNAL WITH ANOTHER ECU OR DEVICE.

Can you please load the attached PCL file into your ECU,

It is loaded with a PC data log setup I wish to check and I have also changed your off boost timing and just interpolated the lower MAP value areas to be less aggressive .

I really need to know about sharing trigger 1 with any other device .

I also need you to reset your computer statistics, before the log run.

I want you to start the engine and let it warm up, (NOTE LOGGER WILL ACTIVATE AT 1100 RPM),If cold start idle speed is above this please set to a higher trigger speed or activate the logger manually.

I want you to rev the engine in neautral and also take for a short drive and give it some in 1st and 2nd gear.

I want you to then save the log file as DAVES LOG,

I want you to leave the engine running and then hit F2 and save the PCL FILE as DAVES RUN.

You must hit F2 while the engine is running so we can capture the idling data as well as error codes and trigger error counter statistics etc.

Your current file shows no trigger error counts etc.

If you can please try the above and post the new PCL, hit F2 and save while engine is running and also post the data log.

Thanks

Regards

Dave.

Volvo_GarretGTX_TIMING.pcl

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Hi Sutkale,

No problems for keeping an eye on your post.

I forgot that the error counter only climbed during low rpm, with quick rev rate.

ARE YOU SHARING TRIGGER 1 SIGNAL WITH ANOTHER ECU OR DEVICE.

Can you please load the attached PCL file into your ECU,

It is loaded with a PC data log setup I wish to check and I have also changed your off boost timing and just interpolated the lower MAP value areas to be less aggressive .

I really need to know about sharing trigger 1 with any other device .

I also need you to reset your computer statistics, before the log run.

I want you to start the engine and let it warm up, (NOTE LOGGER WILL ACTIVATE AT 1100 RPM),If cold start idle speed is above this please set to a higher trigger speed or activate the logger manually.

I want you to rev the engine in neautral and also take for a short drive and give it some in 1st and 2nd gear.

I want you to then save the log file as DAVES LOG,

I want you to leave the engine running and then hit F2 and save the PCL FILE as DAVES RUN.

You must hit F2 while the engine is running so we can capture the idling data as well as error codes and trigger error counter statistics etc.

Your current file shows no trigger error counts etc.

If you can please try the above and post the new PCL, hit F2 and save while engine is running and also post the data log.

Thanks

Regards

Dave.

Hi Dave,

Yes the signal is shared with factory ecu. Have tried it unconnected, but no difference.

Will test your map as well and do test runs accordingly. Will test new screened cable at sensors end since the cable (first 40 cm) is oem sensors cable.

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Here´s the log file and pcl file.

Daves_run.pcl

Runs that are worth of looking are on 6.55, 8.50 - 8.55 and 11.57 - 12,04 mins. At the beginning of file a bit revving on standstill.

Engine did ran much better with new trigger sensor cable on 1st and 2nd gears even though trigger error counter saw plenty of errors. Am I seeing misfires here? That would be quite odd since at higher load (2.5 bar with fat fuel) there is not such symptoms.

EDIT: Forum does not accept log file to be attached. Dave, could you please send me your email via pm.

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Hi,

my email is protuning@bigpond.com

I lowered the light load timing values in your main ignition timing table in case of crankshaft acceleration, deceleration issues by running the ignition timing so high within short rpm changes, (similar to cranking an engine with over advanced ignition timing, the cranking rpm goes fast then slow etc) but with the engine running as I notice in your statistics you also have had a few knock events.

Under the triggers setup can you try using a higher rpm filter than 1- default.

Also in your statistics it shows maximum engine speed as 14 952 rpm, I can tell you in all honesty,

I have had all these exact same symptoms on a customers Supercharged V8 with V88 I had to share the mag reluctor trigger between the factory ECU and the V88, to keep the tacho etc going due to CAN BUS.

I had to bias the crank trigger towards the V88 to run the engine properly, I had to do this using a resistor (1.2 K from memory)the other option would be to use a reluctor interface (converts sine wave to square wave), I had issues with excessive rpm readings which would activate the rpm limiter constantly and would also cause the vehicle tacho to play up or not work at idle.

You have 1586 counts of hitting the rev limiter, now I bet they are generated via the trigger issue, not actual rpm achieved.

I would have these exact issues until I got the correct biasing resistor and raised the trigger arming voltages.

Regards

Dave.

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Hi ,

I have attached a screen shot of my customers car I had the same issues as you with and also a screen shot of your engines statistics.

See anything similar.

Regards

Dave.

post-1099-143450215624_thumb.gif

post-1099-143450215633_thumb.gif

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Hi,

my email is protuning@bigpond.com

I lowered the light load timing values in your main ignition timing table in case of crankshaft acceleration, deceleration issues by running the ignition timing so high within short rpm changes, (similar to cranking an engine with over advanced ignition timing, the cranking rpm goes fast then slow etc) but with the engine running as I notice in your statistics you also have had a few knock events.

Under the triggers setup can you try using a higher rpm filter than 1- default.

Also in your statistics it shows maximum engine speed as 14 952 rpm, I can tell you in all honesty,

I have had all these exact same symptoms on a customers Supercharged V8 with V88 I had to share the mag reluctor trigger between the factory ECU and the V88, to keep the tacho etc going due to CAN BUS.

I had to bias the crank trigger towards the V88 to run the engine properly, I had to do this using a resistor (1.2 K from memory)the other option would be to use a reluctor interface (converts sine wave to square wave), I had issues with excessive rpm readings which would activate the rpm limiter constantly and would also cause the vehicle tacho to play up or not work at idle.

You have 1586 counts of hitting the rev limiter, now I bet they are generated via the trigger issue, not actual rpm achieved.

I would have these exact issues until I got the correct biasing resistor and raised the trigger arming voltages.

Regards

Dave.

Hi Dave,

I emailed the log file yesterday to the above address. Have you got it?

The screenshot you´ve attached definately seems identical in respect of max engine speed. Tried 10k resistor in VE+ wire, but engine barely ran for a seconds and resulted a bunch of trigger errors and bangs in exhaust. Furthermore, it resulted very "beefy" (app. 3-5 time beefier and sharp edged line in trigger scope) trigger signal. Maybe 10K is too much? How did you install the 1.2k resistor? Just in line with VE+ cable? Hopefully heading the right way... :P

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Hi,

in my application I ran the 1.2 k ohm resistor inline with the trigger positive wire to the factory ECU.

I made sure the trigger 1 +ve wire for the V88 was joined to the reluctor wire before the resistor

That way the signal to the factory ECU was reduced and the signal to the ViPEC was stronger.

The resistors you stated you used are far to high in impedence.

You may find that a value of 650 ohms suits your setup.

It is a trial and error thing, unfortunately.

Before I got it correct, it would even through a rev limit warning when trying to start the engine, cranking it over the signal would be that corrupt that it would activate the rev limiter.

As suggested in my previous post a reluctor interface is your other alternative, sine wave in digital square wave out, nice and clean.

Just go to your local electronics shop and buy $10 worth of mixed resistors, you should get a few thousand of them for $10, :D

I definitely did not get any email from you with a data log.

protuning@bigpond.com

Regards

Dave.

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Hi,

in my application I ran the 1.2 k ohm resistor inline with the trigger positive wire to the factory ECU.

I made sure the trigger 1 +ve wire for the V88 was joined to the reluctor wire before the resistor

That way the signal to the factory ECU was reduced and the signal to the ViPEC was stronger.

The resistors you stated you used are far to high in impedence.

You may find that a value of 650 ohms suits your setup.

It is a trial and error thing, unfortunately.

Before I got it correct, it would even through a rev limit warning when trying to start the engine, cranking it over the signal would be that corrupt that it would activate the rev limiter.

As suggested in my previous post a reluctor interface is your other alternative, sine wave in digital square wave out, nice and clean.

Just go to your local electronics shop and buy $10 worth of mixed resistors, you should get a few thousand of them for $10, :D

I definitely did not get any email from you with a data log.

protuning@bigpond.com

Regards

Dave.

Just got in my hands Autronic reluctor interface for decent price. That´s next thing to try. :P

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Hi,

yes that is the precise reluctor interface I was talking about, they work very well.

You need to try the resistor or the reluctor interface.

Looking at these logs are very confusing, rev limiters cutting in for no obvious reasons unless an RPM spike occurs to quick to capture in the log.

There is lots of data that doesn't make sense to me, other than trigger issues, which trigger 1 and 2 stay present the whole time.

I still think you should change the arming voltage, fit the resistor or the reluctor interface.

If none of that fixes it , I think I may have to pass this one onto Ashley.

Strange stuff, but I never dug into my issue to deep I just fitted the resistor and all was good.

I have also added small notes to the bottom right hand corner of screen shot 2 and 3.

Regards

Dave.

post-1099-143450215642_thumb.gif

post-1099-14345021565_thumb.gif

post-1099-143450215659_thumb.gif

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It is worth a try. It can often be hard to keep both systems happy when sharing signals.

A scope image at the point a trigger error occurs would help alot but is not an easy thing to get.

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It is worth a try. It can often be hard to keep both systems happy when sharing signals.

A scope image at the point a trigger error occurs would help alot but is not an easy thing to get.

Yup, tried numerous times, but not being succesfull so far... :twisted:

Anyway, getting much more stable runs on 1st and 2nd gear now with shielded cable installed all the way from the sensor. Only few trigger errors when rmps exceeds app. 9300.

Spotted pretty much an identical issue from Haltech forum; slow acceleration, no symptoms but issues occur when rpm ramp rate is faster:

http://forums.haltech.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=9430

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Okay, did install the reluctor interface to trigger 1 wire and things looking good - at least on idle. Engine starts instantly and hard even on E85 and outside temperature 13 degrees celcius. Haven´t tested on high rpm but looks good so far. For some reason this does not really care whether the trigger edge is falling or rising, works on both.

It seems that trigger 1 is not dropping below 0 volts, should it?

post-1143-143450215685_thumb.jpg

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Not really help from signal conversion... :evil:

Also disconneted factory ECU and no effect at all, so it can´t be attributed to the sharing of signal.

One thing that confuses me, is that according to the logger, both trigger signals are present even though the error occurs. Does this mean the ECU looses sync of tooth / teeth but signal is still present (as I assume)?

However, the engine revs nicely up to 9200 - 9400 rpms on load so I can participate 1 mile speed event on coming weekend.

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Hi Sutkale,

your trigger 1 will not drop below 0 volts as the reluctor interface converts the RELUCTOR AC SINE WAVE to a DC SQUARE WAVE.

As you can see by your scope trace.

It also appears that you have a very small glitch in your trigger 2 shown in the scope trace also.

So now are you saying that you can load run the engine to 9000 rpm plus without issues except the trigger error count goes up.

Have you checked on the dyno with a timing light that the commanded ignition timing by the ECU is the actual ignition timing.

Regards

Dave.

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A couple of errors at start up are ok. But it is very risky to run the engine if the trigger errors are still counting once the engine has started.

As when a trigger error occurs there is a very good chance a spark event could be miss timed.

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Simon and DAve,

Actually there´s a bang in exhaust and engine hits the "rev limiter" when trigger error occurs (usually 9300 - 9400 rpms). For example running between 7000 - 9000 rpms on load engine runs fine and no trigger error occurs - could the timing still deviate from the set timing if there is no errors counting? Anyway gonna have rev limiter at 9000 to make things safe if the situations is that trigger error free runs really do not shift timing?

Haven´t checked timing with the timing light after having got the right basic timing.

Found out that Trigger 2 cam wheel surface is a bit coarse since it is made from stock cam wheel and there´s some scratches from grinding device. That probably results small glitches to signal.

Guys could you please clarify the basics of trigger error function? Is there an error in signal, error in sync between cam and crank signals, tooth / teeth are missing or misfire?. It seems that trigger error as such is a bit misleading if the actual reason for trigger error could be a result for many things. Any chance to develop some sort of fault tracing mechanism for this type of issues? It is obvious ECU sees something, but what it is actually seeing in these type of cases. Tracing these type of issues can sometimes be like finding a needle from the hayrick.. :twisted:

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Its really hard to have a error system that will allow for all the different types of trigger selections available.

And then when you add in VVT it gets even harder as the triggers are moving relative to each other.

If you are not getting trigger errors and have stable RPM and dwell readings then it is very unlikely you will have timing issues.

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Okay. I put the car on winter rest and gonna do some engine work during the winter. Haven´t found any actual reason for the trigger error issue but found out something that might be interesting - ECU actually triggers the trigger error when I am holding off the throttle. The exhaust bang comes so quick at high rpms that its almost impossible to recognize whether it will be triggered at 100% TPS or when I hold off the bedal. Maybe this explains the situation far better (see the trigger error counter and TP % below):

logger03112014kopio_zpsc7feccf8.jpg

Any thoughts? :)

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Hi,

maybe try running the trigger scope and do a stationary neutral gear free rev and capture the trace when you release the throttle.

See if you can capture anything there.

Regards

Dave.

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Got new engine running finally. However, this s***t hasn´t gone anywhere.. :D Changing CDI connector and pins at CDI box end did not help that I thougt would be the final solution since got some loose pins over there dropping cylinder #3 from the game occasionally. So clean trigger at start and revving cleanly until 7000 rpm and then issues occurring espeacially when revs accelerate very fast. When revs don´t come in that hard, at higger gears, the run is usually without trigger issues. Should the ecu see trigger error, it usually causes 15-20 error causing rev calculator to see 15.000 - 65.000 rev spikes and and got rev limiter activated.

Gotta do more some test driving within next days and see if I get any hint what could be causing this. For some reason I think this is more related to some other issue than directly to crank and cam sensors or their wireing since start and low rev running is clean.

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Hi Sutkale,
Is your trigger 2 signal clean now or does it still have glitches.
Also, I can't remember now but you only have 1 tooth on the cam sensor and is 60-2 at the crank.
Any chance of timing belt deflection via harmonics is causing any trigger error on 2.
Is the trigger 1 wheel on the harmonic balancer, if could the keyway be worn and the balancer and trigger wheel have movement.
Trigger 2 glitch could also be damaged sensor or corroded or wet connections or poor termination at pins etc.
Trigger errors occur on acceleration hard, definitely not when you take your foot off the accelerator pedal.
Do you have a lightened flywheel.
Are all cylinders definitely running 100 %, carry out compression test, have you checked the ignition timing on each individual cylinder.
Is your ignition delay value set correctly so there is no timing drift at any given rpm.
If you run the engine connected to your laptop and PRESS F12 RUN TIME values, go to TRIGGERS and LIMITS, free rev the engine and watch the TRIGGER STATUS on trigger 1 and 2, make sure they both stay GREEN and say yes.
Just curious as to whether or not it changes even slightly when trigger error occurs.
Does the tacho also play up and go crazy when the trigger errors occur, does it try to replicate the 50 - 60 K RPM.
Just a few more things to consider.

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Hi Sutkale,

Is your trigger 2 signal clean now or does it still have glitches.

Also, I can't remember now but you only have 1 tooth on the cam sensor and is 60-2 at the crank.

Any chance of timing belt deflection via harmonics is causing any trigger error on 2.

Is the trigger 1 wheel on the harmonic balancer, if could the keyway be worn and the balancer and trigger wheel have movement.

Trigger 2 glitch could also be damaged sensor or corroded or wet connections or poor termination at pins etc.

Trigger errors occur on acceleration hard, definitely not when you take your foot off the accelerator pedal.

Do you have a lightened flywheel.

Are all cylinders definitely running 100 %, carry out compression test, have you checked the ignition timing on each individual cylinder.

Is your ignition delay value set correctly so there is no timing drift at any given rpm.

If you run the engine connected to your laptop and PRESS F12 RUN TIME values, go to TRIGGERS and LIMITS, free rev the engine and watch the TRIGGER STATUS on trigger 1 and 2, make sure they both stay GREEN and say yes.

Just curious as to whether or not it changes even slightly when trigger error occurs.

Does the tacho also play up and go crazy when the trigger errors occur, does it try to replicate the 50 - 60 K RPM.

Just a few more things to consider.

 

Yup, lot´s of things to consider of. I´ll start with re-routing trig 1 and 2 and see if it has any effect.

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