Seat Ibiza (TT) Plugin

[Grant Baker]

Hi guys,

Just installed a TT Plugin G4+ into a SEAT Ibiza 1.8T.

Same plugs etc, same pins etc, so all went well. Car runs lovely as expected.

Only issue(s) are as follows, and are probably just a single setup error!

1) Traction and ABS lights are illuminated on the car's dash

2) Got some CAN errors on the Runtime list

Have we got something set up incorrectly in the CAN stuff?

[Scott]

Hi Grant, 

It is possible that the lights are on due to the CAN bus problem. In the CAN setup menu you are able to choose between VW Golf and Audi TT, and you try both options? Select each mode in turn, click apply and OK, then Store to the ECU and turn the ignition off, and then back on.

Scott.

[Grant Baker]

Hi Scott,

Thank you for that.

We have now tried the Golf GTi option and now the ABS light has gone out, but not the ESP light.

Is this something we can sort easily? With the stock ECU in place there are no errors.

[mapper]

Wow haven't now that they working on VW golfs and Seats, too! Link you shoud post that on your website! 

[Scott]

Hi Grant, most likely the ESP light control is over the CAN bus, and in a different data location than on the Audi TT or VW Golf we tested. A wiring diagram for your exact model would probably confirm this. To fix this we would need to work out where in the CAN bus data layout the Seat has this, and then replicate it in our ECU. Do you have access to a CAN bus sniffing tool? Some oscilloscopes (including picoscope) have this functionality.

Scott. 

Wow haven't now that they working on VW golfs and Seats, too! Link you shoud post that on your website! 

Hi Mapper, yes we have plans to improve the website and marketing effort.

Scott.

[Grant Baker]

I don't have a CAN Sniffer.

Is there any software out there that can be used with an OBD cable etc? 

[Scott]

Hi Grant, I'm unsure if your vehicle has CAN bus come out to the OBD2 port. If it does it would normally be on pins 6 and 14.

If the OBD2 socket does not have CAN then you will need to tap in somewhere else, possibly close to the ECU.

I spoke to a dealer recently who was using a CANdo product and was happy with the price and features. This may be worth investigating.

http://www.cananalyser.co.uk/cando.html

Scott

Edited June 22, 2016 by Scott

[Grant Baker]

Interesting...

So If I sniff out the CAN data, can this be decoded by Link to sort the issue?

[Scott]

You will need to use the CAN sniffer to identify:

• The CAN ID of the message that contains the ON/OFF status of the light
• The CAN byte (within the message) that contains the ON/OFF status of the light
• What the value of the byte is when the light is ON
• What the value of the byte is when the light is OFF

We can then try and recreate this in the Link's custom CAN configuration so that we can test the information is correct.

There is a chance that the light is controlled by an output of a controller directly, rather than over CAN. If this is the case then wiring the lamp up to a spare output of the ECU is a possible solution.

Scott

[jannerboy]

Hi,

We are struggling with this issue. I've attached the CANBUS wiring diagrams for the car. Also a word doc for the module unit descriptions.

I'd really appreciate if these could be reviewed vs the Audi and Golf versions as something must be different!

I'll post up the ABS EDL TCS ESP wiring diagrams in the next post as well for you to review please!

Regards, John

CANBUS3.pdf

CANBUS2.pdf

CANBUS1.pdf

CANBUS4.pdf

CANBUS Connections.doc

We still have the ABS light on (and the ABS is functioning all the time) and ESP light on (and the ESP function does not work).

I can't attach the next batch of files!

[Grant Baker]

Hi John,

This is not a wiring issue IMO.

You need to (as we know!) sniff out the CAN data.

[jannerboy]

The Seat Ibiza Cupra 2007 model, has the wiring for CanBus at the OBD2 socket. However, the CanBus module J533 of the vehicle does not output to the OBD2 socket.

Apparently, which is really handy. Not. So I had to wire it up old school. So now it works.Good job I know how to use a soldering iron. Anyhow...

We have the Canalyser software attached, and it works with the OBD2 socket.

I want to attach files/pics but i can't which is really annoying....i'd love to show you but i can't.

re-set my "attachments" allowance please.

 

 

[Scott]

Grant is correct, if the lamps are controlled over CAN then the problem lies with the data being sent and received on the bus rather than the wiring of the bus. I've just increased all members data limit, so you should be able to post now.

Scott.

Edited July 11, 2016 by Scott
typo

[jannerboy]

Scott, many thanks for the upload changes.

The Canalyser kit comes with an executable piece of software to check connection, and thats confirmed we now can see the Canbus network.

Now to the small matter of sniffing out the data we need to fix this issue...

Are you able to advise how to do this? Any links to forums, websites that a Canbus noob would benefit from seeing would be very useful right now!

Cheers, John

Edited July 11, 2016 by jannerboy
images added

[Scott]

Hi John,

Here is a document by Volkswagen used in their training program. It gives a general overview of how CAN bus works:

http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_238.pdf

There are a number of ways to do CAN bus reverse engineering, but they all pretty much work by making a change and looking through the data to identify the data location for that particular change. Here are two methods:

Identify by monitoring:

1. Find out which CAN IDs belong to which controller (ECU, ABS, Dash, etc) by disconnecting controllers one at a time and see which CAN IDs are no longer present. Eventually you will know which device all of the CAN IDs belong to. This can lead to fault codes being logged on the system, but often disconnecting and reconnecting the battery will clear these. 
2. Monitor the CAN IDs from the device you are interested in. For you the CAN data is most likely coming from a combined ABS/ESP unit or from the ECU to the dash, so you would monitor these CAN IDs.
3. Do something to create a change. You might look at the data on the IDs using the factory ECU, see the data values with the ESP and ABS lights on, and then see how the data changes with the lights off.
4. Disconnect the ECU or ABS/ESP unit (whichever is doing the sending) and use the CANdo to transmit the data that is required to turn the lights off. If this is successful you have identified the data location and value.
5. Re-create this data in the G4+ ECU and confirm it turns the lights out.

Identify by log playback

1. Identify which device sends the message to control the ABS and ESP lights (see above).
2. Record a log file of the CAN bus traffic with the lights behaving normally using the factory ECU (turn key on, see lights on, start engine, see lights go off).
3. Disconnect the transmitting device and playback the log file message by message until you identify which message turns the lights off. Work out what the data value is for lights on and lights off.
4. Re-create this data in the G4+ ECU and confirm it turns the lights out.

Let us know how you get on.

Scott

[jannerboy]

Hi Scott,

Ok so I put back in the stock ECU and logged the data for ignition key on and to the point where the lights went out. There was no need to start the car as the lights go out after a short period.

The first table is ignition on ABS ESP lights on, and then the second table is ABS ESP lights off. So we have the change BUT....there's always a BUT...the power steering light also enables/disables at the same time.

So its not easy to decipher exactly which MESSAGE ID is the culprit. There are many changes from ign on to the lights off.

As always this is a bit more complex than usual...BUT this is where you guys come in.

You MUST have the data for an AUDI TT and a GOLF GTi for the CANBUS data, so you should be able to compare what I have to ascertain which MESSAGE ID is the culprit to save me ripping my car to pieces to try and further work this out!

Ignore values in RED as they are what I call continuously fluctuating and not "switched". Green is "switched" and could be the ABS/ESP lights.

But which MESSAGE ID and DATA value is the culprit?

In fact I request some more direct help from your team who is the CAN expert, whereby you can Teamviewer dial in to my laptop live onto the car and diagnose this direct ASAP please?

This is now taking a LOT of my time to sort out!

John

 

[Grant Baker]

Quick bit of investigation it seems that 1A0, D2 is the ABS light.

As a CAN newbie... How can this be "fixed" in the CAN Setup on the G4+?

I appreciate you don't have the time to hold hands, but any pointers would be massively appreciated.

Thanks

[Scott]

Hi John and Grant,

Our information from the TT we reverse engineered shows that CAN ID 416 (hex 1A0) comes from the ESP module and that the 1st byte contains 'Traction control status' and the 2nd byte contains the 'ASR light' and the 'Brake switch B'.

What is interesting is that this data is sent by the ESP module, and yet changing the ECU is somehow causing the ESP module to behave differently. I suspect that the ESP module is expecting a CAN message from the ECU that it is not receiving when our ECU is fitted. I think the next step would be to record a log of switching the ignition on with factory ECU fitted, then record a log of switching the ignition on with our ECU fitted. Then the logs would be compared for differences in data.

Another possibility is that the ESP module waits a certain amount of time after powering up to receive a message from the ECU. If it does not receive this message in the allowed time it will log a fault and bring the lights on. This could be tested in two ways:

• Leave the factory ECU in place, but power it up later than the rest of the vehicle and see if the ESP module keeps the lights on. You may want to vary the amount of time you wait before powering up the ECU.

or

• Fit the TTLink ECU and power it up before the rest of the vehicle and see if the warning lights behave normally.

Once we identify what is causing the actual issue I can set up some custom CAN configuration in the TTLink to resolve the problem.

CAN bus reverse engineering is time consuming work, but it is satisfying when you work something out.

Scott

 

[Grant Baker]

Very helpful Scott.

Thank you.

[jannerboy]

Scott, Grant,

1A0 is the message ID, 2nd Byte.

It switches from 03 (IGN ON and ECU "talking" to the network) to 00 (IGN ON and lights out ready to start).

It switches from 00 (IGN ON car running) to 02 when I push the ESP Traction Control Button.

Tested by "firing" the modified 2nd byte using Canalyser as shown below.

This is Stock ECU. I will now plug in the TT Link.

Getting there...:-)

Edited July 13, 2016 by jannerboy
picture added

[jannerboy]

Guys,

Here is the comparison image. Yellow is differences...

The Link does not output message ID 588. Not important?

Message ID 520 I think is also unimportant? It increments as I cycle the igntion switch?

So we are left with :-

Message ID 320 1st Byte. Stock it switches from 2 to 0, whereas Link its 3 to 1.

Message ID 1A0 2nd Byte. Stock as described above but Link it switches as Stock but then switches back to 3.

 

 

Edited July 13, 2016 by jannerboy

[Scott]

Good progress!

I expect that ID 320 is the message from the ECU to the ESP, and that ID 1A0 is the message from the ESP to the dash.

If you disconnect the ECU, and configure the CANdo to constantly transmit on ID 320 with the 1st byte as '0', then power up the system and see if the ESP module then sends out a value '0' on CAN ID 1A0 (2nd Byte).

I don't have any information on CAN IDs 520 or 588, our test vehicle did not have them. If you no ECU fitted and the use CANdo you should be able to confirm if these IDs come from the ECU or not.

Scott.

[jannerboy]

Scott,

Straight answer. No.

If I use the F1 key to fire the change the lights "flicker"...something else is preventing the lights from going out...:-(

How do we make the change so that with the Link does the same as stock, connected we get:-

Message ID 320 1st Byte. Stock it switches from 2 to 0...?

 

Edited July 14, 2016 by jannerboy

[Scott]

Hi John,

I've spoken with our engineering team, and they have confirmed that ID 320 (Dec 800) does not come from our ECU. This means it is coming from another device on the bus, and explains why when you transmit from the CANdo the lights flicker, as another device is forcing them back on.

I would like to help by examining and comparing the data from logs. Looking at the CANdo software it is capable of recording log files in CSV format. Can you please record the following logs for me and email to [email protected]?

Log 1: Factory ECU fitted, start log, turn key on, stop log when lights turn off.

Log 2: No ECU fitted, start log, turn key on, stop log after lights been on for a second or two.

Log 3: Link ECU fitted, start log, turn key on, stop log after lights been on for a second or two.

Scott.

[jannerboy]

Hi Scott,

email'd! Thanks for looking into this. 

Log options that I chose shown below.

Ahhhhhhhhhhh but ignore the CSV files as I found some ASCII characters have prevented loading into Excel.

I've sorted that now and will send you three log files in an old EXCEL .xls format...

This should be much easier to work with.

Edited July 15, 2016 by jannerboy