G4+ Xtreme Red Triggers fine but no scope reading? NSX C30A

[coupe-r]

Hi there, well it's my first time ever using link software but I have tuned MANY engines before using flash tune, chip socket, Haltec etc.

Engine: C30A NSX engine running large cams and 6 ITB's.

Trigger 1=Stock 24 tooth VR NSX (cam driven) crank rotation trigger

Trigger 2=Stock 1 tooth VR NSX (cam driven) cylinder sync trigger

QUESTION 1: When cranking the engine we get a YES for trigger 1, then very quickly a YES for trigger 2 and RPM of around 180RPM while cranking.
ZERO trigger errors and we log engine cycles as we keep cranking.
**BUT SCOPE TRIGGERS RETURNS NO DATA** Even when we chose capture for the trigger while connected and logging the ecu and cranking.

I don't think we have any issues with the triggers but it would be nice to confirm the arming voltage at cranking using the link Scope software.

QUESTION 2: I got this NSX map from someone else and it's not really to my liking for ITB and big cams. The link help talks about tuning an NA motor with unstable MAP (that will be us) says to use load equation=BAP and fuel and ignition y axis=TP Main. (Makes sense to me)

THEN the Lambda target table help section talks about how G4+ is very good with ITB's and to use load equation=MAP, open loop lambda on so that the MAP axis of target lambda can make adjustments.

So which is the best recommendation for a NA motor with ITB? (We are running a map sensor to a vac box off the runners)

QUESTION 3: Should I scrap this map, update the firmware and just use modelled fuel (this map using traditional and the Xtreme Red is on old firmware so I can't choose modelled yet.)

QUESTION 4: NSX motor has dual vtec solenoids. Can I use AUX5 to drive BOTH of these high side vtec solenoids with no relay. OR should I use individual AUX5 and AUX6 for each wired separately? (ON at same time of course)
Stock NSX ECU drives both solenoids at 12+ from ONE ECU pin I believe.

QUESTION 5: How can I view the fuel and timing maps as a 2D graph (showing lines for EACH load/TP scale) I find this MUCH more useful than a pretty 3D map. 2D more easily shows if lines are crossing over or any ugly basemaps.

I have attached the map and also a log while cranking (Fuel and Spark disabled in this log hence no injector duration or spark dwell etc)
I have NOT finished with my fuel and ignition RPM scales or ignition timing map. So it's a bit of a mess. I have made the maps dual fuel and ignition (like a Honda ecu) for more RPM resolution. 

 

 

 

fuel 1 changed.pclr

cody 2.llg

[Scott]

 

QUESTION 1: When cranking the engine we get a YES for trigger 1, then very quickly a YES for trigger 2 and RPM of around 180RPM while cranking.
ZERO trigger errors and we log engine cycles as we keep cranking.
**BUT SCOPE TRIGGERS RETURNS NO DATA** Even when we chose capture for the trigger while connected and logging the ecu and cranking.

I see you are on firmware 5.1.1, I would consider upgrading PCLink and firmware to our latest as there have been changes and fixes to TriggerScope.

QUESTION 2: I got this NSX map from someone else and it's not really to my liking for ITB and big cams. The link help talks about tuning an NA motor with unstable MAP (that will be us) says to use load equation=BAP and fuel and ignition y axis=TP Main. (Makes sense to me)

THEN the Lambda target table help section talks about how G4+ is very good with ITB's and to use load equation=MAP, open loop lambda on so that the MAP axis of target lambda can make adjustments.

So which is the best recommendation for a NA motor with ITB? (We are running a map sensor to a vac box off the runners)Li

Either way will work and Link tuners differ in which method they use. As you will have some form of MAP reading from your vac box I recommend trying the method described on the 'AFR/Lambda Target Table' page of PCLink Help.

QUESTION 3: Should I scrap this map, update the firmware and just use modelled fuel (this map using traditional and the Xtreme Red is on old firmware so I can't choose modelled yet.)

If you have the injector deadtime and injector short pulse width adder data for your injectors then I recommend using modelled fueling.

QUESTION 4: NSX motor has dual vtec solenoids. Can I use AUX5 to drive BOTH of these high side vtec solenoids with no relay. OR should I use individual AUX5 and AUX6 for each wired separately? (ON at same time of course)
Stock NSX ECU drives both solenoids at 12+ from ONE ECU pin I believe.

Aux Output's 5 to 8 are able to supply a maximum of 0.5 amp current per channel when high side driving. I think it is very likely that each solenoid will draw more than this. I recommend using an aux output to activate a relay that switches on both VTEC solenoids.

QUESTION 5: How can I view the fuel and timing maps as a 2D graph (showing lines for EACH load/TP scale) I find this MUCH more useful than a pretty 3D map. 2D more easily shows if lines are crossing over or any ugly basemaps.

There is no way to view a 3D table graph as 2D other than rotating the view so you view it side on.

Scott

[coupe-r]

You guys are EXCELLENT with your response time! Cheers Scott

Regarding the Scope I also recommended updating firmware but the owner got a error 1019 when attempting this. Then he got a success afterwards but it still reports older firmware...
I'll try to carry this out myself (the car isn't with me right now it's at the owners house)

I will try the target lambda method provided the logged AFR is accurate and stable enough (noisy analogue input), it sounds like a fancy method but I'm a little wary of allowing a wideband and unstable map to make further adjustments to my tuned TP fuel map. (I can try in future and see) It all depends on how you scale the target lambda map vs load axis I guess...

I have dead times but not short pulse width adder data. They are Honda RDX injectors (Factory injectors from a US Spec RDX) So my fuel model won't be super accurate (maybe i'll stick with traditional in that case)

Regarding the current draw when driving TWO soleniods I assume there will be a spike of more than 0.5 AMPS as you say when opening both at once. Holding both open after that possibly not... Thanks for the recommendation though.

 

I'm surprised with the CRAZY amount of features and years of development that no other tuner has requested 2D fuel and timing maps? Maybe it's just me? Then again you use different fuel models (VE and modelled fuel)

When tuning fuel maps with injector time and you tune for a FLAT AFR under full load, it's great to see 2D fuel maps. You can see where the motor demands more or less fuel. It also matches the torque curve of the motor on the dyno vs your engines fuel demands.
I'm sure you would see this in VE also (where motor demands more fuel)

 

[Scott]

I'm surprised with the CRAZY amount of features and years of development that no other tuner has requested 2D fuel and timing maps? Maybe it's just me? Then again you use different fuel models (VE and modelled fuel)

When tuning fuel maps with injector time and you tune for a FLAT AFR under full load, it's great to see 2D fuel maps. You can see where the motor demands more or less fuel. It also matches the torque curve of the motor on the dyno vs your engines fuel demands.
I'm sure you would see this in VE also (where motor demands more fuel)

For 3D tables with adjustable axis (just about all of them) it is possible to convert the table from 3D to 2D by entering Axis Setup (x key is the shortcut) and turn one axis off. This will allow you to view the remaining data as a 2D graph. This works on for a 3D table with one or two lines of data, but is not really useful for larger tables like the main fuel and ignition tables. 

Scott

[coupe-r]

These are VERY old screen shots from Hondata but you get the idea.

First pic shows a badly tuned map (you would struggle to see this quickly in 3D mode)
(purple line at the bottom is low map kPa, top green line is high map kPa load full throttle)

Second pic shows fuel curves tidied up. 

I use the software below where you can see your Raw values AND the graph at the same time (as you can in PCLINK just not quite with the graph I am after)

 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2017 by coupe-r

[Scott]

Thanks for the screenshots, I see what you mean. I'm happy to ask the engineers to consider something like this.

Scott

[coupe-r]

Cheers Scott

I'll graph up the attached map using 2D then post a 3D PClink map of the same data

[b3tuning]

I'd like to add my vote for the addition of optional 2D graphs as well...  I like switching between 3D and 2D in other platforms to quickly find areas that need a little more attention or being able to identify trends to speed up mapping certain areas, as well as just another data point for finding bottle necks in setups.

[Brad Burnett]

Coupe-R,

"QUESTION 2: I got this NSX map from someone else and it's not really to my liking for ITB and big cams. The link help talks about tuning an NA motor with unstable MAP (that will be us) says to use load equation=BAP and fuel and ignition y axis=TP Main. (Makes sense to me)

THEN the Lambda target table help section talks about how G4+ is very good with ITB's and to use load equation=MAP, open loop lambda on so that the MAP axis of target lambda can make adjustments.

So which is the best recommendation for a NA motor with ITB? (We are running a map sensor to a vac box off the runners)"

 

I have a done a few ITB set ups recently and I would highly recommend the setting the load equation as MAP and then set the load axis in the fuel/ignition map as TPS.  Most of these setups were using the Modelled fuel equations.

[coupe-r]

I'd like to add my vote for the addition of optional 2D graphs as well...  I like switching between 3D and 2D in other platforms to quickly find areas that need a little more attention or being able to identify trends to speed up mapping certain areas, as well as just another data point for finding bottle necks in setups.

Exactly! I thought surely i'm not the only one! It's sooooo much quicker this way to get a nice fuel curve at all load zones. I can tell tuners who don't do this when i look at their maps in 2D. A complete MESS

 

I have a done a few ITB set ups recently and I would highly recommend the setting the load equation as MAP and then set the load axis in the fuel/ignition map as TPS.  Most of these setups were using the Modelled fuel equations.

But then do you go on to use open loop Target lambda also? Modelling fuel I am not sure I can use as I just don't have all the exact variables it calls for.

 

I see you are on firmware 5.1.1, I would consider upgrading PCLink and firmware to our latest as there have been changes and fixes to TriggerScope.

Got the owner to follow the firmware update video. Firmware updated still no scope (max voltage on both triggers 0.17V (just trigger noise)
I'll have to have a play with this. Possibly create a new basemap from scratch and try

[Scott]

Got the owner to follow the firmware update video. Firmware updated still no scope (max voltage on both triggers 0.17V (just trigger noise)
I'll have to have a play with this. Possibly create a new basemap from scratch and try

Has the ECU been unlocked yet? The trigger signals are disabled until this is done.

Scott

[coupe-r]

Sure has. (I think you can see that info in the attached log? Maybe not...)

I'll go around to the owners house and copy my map over. Update firmware again then save the map, STORE etc. Start a log and crank then i'll upload here again if I have trouble.

QUESTION: Updating firmware while you have a map open: Does this FIRMWARE update also update the map file you have open?

I.E. If I update the Link FIRMWARE then I open an old map file it will be on older firmware right? So FIRMWARE is tied to a map file NOT the ECU?

[Scott]

Yes you are correct, the firmware is tied to the ECU and not the base-map. When you do a firmware update it updates the tune in the ECU, but not any previously saved versions of the base-map on your hard drive.

Scott

[coupe-r]

Thanks for the quick replies.
Hmmm so effectively the firmware is actually tied to the map file which stored in the ecu at the time of Firmware update.

I can update the firmware on a map stored in the ecu from 5.1.1 to 5.6.4
I can then upload an old saved map to the ecu which is on older firmware 5.1.1. The result is the ecu and map now reports old 5.1.1 firmware again.

Sounds like Firmware is tied to maps NOT ECU.

If it was tied to the ECU and remained in the ecu then when you attempted to open an old map the PCLink software could say something like "You have opened a map on older firmware then your ECU is running, would you like to upgrade this map to match ECU firmware"

[Scott]

If you had the ECU on firmware version 5.6.4 and then loaded in a base-map from your hard drive that was from firmware 5.1.1, the ECU would try and correct the base-map to suit the new firmware. Because that is quite a jump in firmware versions and the newer firmware (5.6.4) has settings that didn't exist in 5.1.1 the ECU may not correctly allocate these settings. So if you load a base-map from older firmware into an ECU on newer firmware make sure you check all the settings.

Scott

[coupe-r]

Right I'm with you, so firmware stays with ecu.

cheers (still we have no trigger scope with newest firmware and I created a new map from the xtreme black map and setup triggers and arming to match)

getting rpm and cycles and no trigger errors. But scope only captures 0.17V max which is just noise....

trying with an actual scope soon

[Scott]

That is strange. I think you're right, if the ECU is seeing cranking speed rpm correctly then it must be seeing the trigger signals. Maybe try clicking ECU Controls > Restore to factory Settings. Then load your base-map into the ECU and try TriggerScope again.

Scott

[coupe-r]

Yep as per the first map and log posted

Thanks Scott, we will ocntinue scoping with an actual scope to set trigger arming. Then try ecu reset and reload map.

Regarding AUX 5 current limits...

Although I can't find anywhere in the PC Link guide that specifies current limit for aux it does say that you can wire a vtec solenoid directly to Aux5,6,7 or 8 without a relay.

 

This taken from the G4 PDF manual

 

Edited January 11, 2017 by coupe-r

[b3tuning]

@coupe-r - since you are trying to drive both V-tec solenoids with one output, I would honestly recommend using a relay... you can then use any output, LowSide OR HighSide to trigger the relay (with simple wiring changes on the 85/86 relay pins), and have the relay energize both solenoids via the relay pin 87... then you'll ensure not overloading the ecu, plus it gives you some more options on utilizing outputs since you aren't tied to only HighSide capable outputs

For using a LowSide output pin, wire ecu pin to relay pin 85, have Switched 12v going to relay pin 30 and 86, and relay pin 87 going to both solenoids.

For using a HighSide output pin, wire ecu pin to relay pin 86, relay pin 85 to ground, and Switched 12v going to relay pin 30

for both cases, out of habit, I'd recommend a flyback diode between the relay pin 85 and 86, cathode whichever of 85/86 are 12v and anode to the other

[coupe-r]

Cheers for the relay advice b3tuning. I didn't wire the car, I am just helping a friend with initial start up.

Andre Simon also confirmed they are a 2 AMP limit for Aux high drive.

I did get the owner to measure current draw when firing the solenoid which was 0.6AMPS *2 is well under the current limit but i'll leave that up to the owner.

Will post when we figure why link won't scope (the fact it logs RPM and cycles SURELY means we are seeing both triggers with no errors)

 

Edited January 11, 2017 by coupe-r

[Scott]

Andre Simon also confirmed they are a 2 AMP limit for Aux high drive.

I did get the owner to measure current draw when firing the solenoid which was 0.6AMPS *2 is well under the current limit but i'll leave that up to the owner.

Andre may have misunderstood. Aux outputs 5 to 8 when driving high can only supply 0.5 amps of current.

If switching a ground they will do 2 amps.

Scott

 

[coupe-r]

Thanks for clearing this up Scott! Good stuff.

So far we have calibrated triggers and have it firing at TDC consistently. However link scope still doesn't work at all. (Are you SURE the early red xtreme ecu supported the scope triggers function?)

ecu version should be in the attached map and log.

cheers

Edited January 12, 2017 by coupe-r

[Scott]

We will test TriggerScope on a red G4+ Xtreme and come back to you with the results. I don't have one here right now, so Simon will likely do this on Monday. 

Have a good weekend.

Scott.

[Simon]

Hmm so I have now run this on the bench and have the same issue with the trigger scope.

Will need to do some more testing to see what is going on.

[coupe-r]

Thanks Simon, I'm glad it's not user error at our end. I had a couple of tuners also say to me they can't get Xtreme G4+ Red to scope either.

Hopefully you find the issue as we still need to fire this engine up and don't have a scope handy.

Cheers