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Pieter Gouwy

G4+ wire-in to 3sge with itb's

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Pieter,

One other thing I just noticed that might be some of your hot start problem...

Your trigger scope posted earlier only shows about 0.16V.  I dont know if that scope was taken with a hot or cold engine but reluctor type sensors will usually output less voltage with increasing temperature. The minimum value that PC Link will accept for trigger arming is 0.2V.  That means the ECU will ignore any signal below 0.2V so your set up is pretty boarderline.  

Typically you set arming threshold to 1/3 to 1/2 of the normal trigger output voltage.  So for reliable triggering you really want your trigger output voltage to be higher - at least above 0.2V, but closer to 0.4V would be ideal.  I would try reducing the sensor air gap a little and do another triggerscope.   

Edited by Adamw
typo

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So, as it was running yesterday i played with the throttle linkages a bit in order to synchronize them a bit. As they haven't been set up yet (due to it not running decently enough). I lowered the opening of them quite a bit aswell.

so today i started it with the latest map blaine wrote for it. Not only did it have a bit more difficulty starting, i couldn't touch the throttle anymore without it stalling. And as soon as i'm above 25degrees i cant get life into it anymore. Wich is a massive problem as i need to wait for it to cool down for several hours again. When i crank, sometimes it makes a few revolutions and then dies, other times, It just cranks and when i let go of the ign swith to the on position it just bangs really loud through the exhaust. So i'm a bit affraid it will cost me yet another sensor.

I must add due to playing with the itb's synchronisaton i've lowered the idle that far so i can now hear the idle air solenoid doing its job as i can clearly taking in air when cold and Gradualy i can hear it take in less and less as it warmed up.

The question now is, am i correct assuming this is related to the wrong amount of fuel is being delivered? And if so, in wich of the cold start maps do i make changes when it doesnt want to start as i continue to crank. (Due to translation its not 100% clear to me)

The triggering issue that Adamw suggested isn't the problem i think, as i'm seeing the same voltage warm as cold. Plus i cant really change the gap on the cam, as these are in the head and seal with a rubber o ring on their base. So putting it further out isnt really possible or it'd have an oil leak i would imagine. (Good tip tho, as i didnt know a bigger gap made more voltage)

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I think there are a few issues going on here, but if your trigger voltage is only 0.16v then Adam is correct, this will create a problem. The ECU will regard anything less than the value entered in the active trigger arming threshold table cell as electrical noise.

To increase the voltage the sensor is seeing you can:

  • reduce the gap between sensor and teeth of the wheel
  • increase engine speed at cranking
  • replace the sensor with a sensor that outputs a greater voltage for the same conditions.

Scott

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Further to Scott's comments, I still highly suspect triggering is most of your problem.  A couple more comments:  After shifting the throttle linkage you will need to re-calibrate the TP sensor.  I would suggest you dont mess around with cold start maps yet, the defaults are usually close enough to run most enines.  Start by making changes to just the Master fuel setting until it runs ok warm. 

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As far as the triggering goes:  I have a sxe10 beams engine in my car.  Low rpms cranking, I have the trigger 1 arming threshold at .3, which I believe is the base value in the altezza base cal.

I have had zero issues with triggers on my engine.  If you are having triggering issues, it could be a voltage issue.

 

As  Adamw said,  I would start off with one of the maps provided and adjust the master fuel until you get it lit off and running while warm.

 

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hi,

I have looked at the sensors and there is no way of getting more air gap in them as they seal arroud the sensor, both arround the crank and arround the cam as they are inside the head.

This is another trigger scope of it cranking while hot 65degrees. (caught on once maybe on one cilinder). This looks weird to me but i dont really know what image i should be seeing.

I deffo have a trigger problem as i've noticed it sometimes jumps to  4500-5500rpm while cranking and it catches one cilinder.

I never much heard these sensors fail on these so i presume its al down to settings or wiring?

corollablainefueldown.pclr

weird log.jpg

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Pieter,

       Your cam sensor is completely NOT happening. Crank waveform looks good. I would confirm your wiring to the cam sensor. If the wiring is good it looks like you may have a bad cam sensor. It should have an amplitude similar to the crank. You will at the very least be able to see a definite uniform pulse.

 

Blaine

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I swapped the exhaust cam sensor to the intake side and re-tried. same effect. i do have a waveform now but i think this is because i didnt fully understood that when u click capture it just takes a momentarely frame from the signals.
before i clicked capture and only then started cranking. Where i've now clicked capture while cranking and got a waveform so i dont think there is anything wrong with the sensor i removed and put in the exhaust side. (it would surprise me as the engine came out of a known runner)

So even tho i have a signal now it still doesnt start, now it even doesnt start cold... no matter what value i enter in the main fuel map, it just keeps making loud bangs out the exhaust and the occasional few rotations...

Trigger Scope Log 2017-02-1 10;06;35 am.llg

Edited by Pieter Gouwy

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Pieter,

   It looks like the polarity on your Trigger2 is reversed. If you can re pin the connector. Try increasing the first cell of both your trigger1 and trigger 2 arming thresholds to .5 or .6. It will be under Triggers>Trigger1 and Triggers>Trigger2. You seem to have a bit of noise on Trigger2 which may be very close to your arming threshold. If you can get it running again take another trigger scope when its hot.

Blaine

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Problem has been found in the meantime! The polarity of the sensor wiring was indeed reversed blaine. I stupidly mirrored it off the other side not noticing the plug is on backwards on the sensor. Now it's starting like a beauty.

Warm up isnt ideal yet, but i'll start with synchronizing the itbs with propper equipment i've got at my disposal from a guy that does bike engines. And setting the base opening first.

Any other stuff i should set first?

also i'm still doubting between using bap and map as most stuff i read on the web suggest using bap because of the unstable pressures in the intake and on here most prefere map... So i'm a bit puzzled

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Pieter,

I have been using the Map load for the fuel equation on quite a few ITB motors with great results.

Even the beams with the ITB still has a pretty stable Map reading.

 

Honestly, you can get to the end result both ways.  Its just a matter of preference.

Edited by Brad Burnett

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Problem has been found in the meantime! The polarity of the sensor wiring was indeed reversed blaine. I stupidly mirrored it off the other side not noticing the plug is on backwards on the sensor. Now it's starting like a beauty.

Warm up isnt ideal yet, but i'll start with synchronizing the itbs with propper equipment i've got at my disposal from a guy that does bike engines. And setting the base opening first.

Any other stuff i should set first?

also i'm still doubting between using bap and map as most stuff i read on the web suggest using bap because of the unstable pressures in the intake and on here most prefere map... So i'm a bit puzzled

Hi Peter. 

I will start wiring up my Beams engine transplant soon. What was the colour of the crank angle sensor + and - wires? I'd like to avoid any possibility of a similar issue to what you experienced. Also, how did you connect the coaxial shield?

Did you end up using MAP or BAP and with what outcomes? Have you used TPS or MAP for fuel and ignition maps? I am aldo leaning toward BAP/TPS load as my setup is much like yours, also running ITBs.

 

Rob

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Hi, wire colors are quite straight forward. I just had the polarity wrong on the link loom side. And yes i did use the shield as far as i could. It is exposed near the sensor but this didnt give me any issues.

 

bap and tps is what i used. The map signal was quite unstable at idle to be of good use.

on a 20v manifold i'd use the map tho. As it has an internal chamber system that goes to all ports of the head.

so it depends what adapter u used

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