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krohelm

CAN-Lambda Problem <Resolved>

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Iterated with Simon, and regardless of the log files and voltmeter measurements - I ran a new power supply pair and it works (I tried this parallel twice before).  While I'm curious what was wrong with the +/- I had, I just do not care enough to root cause it; my car works and Link tech support is amazing.  On to tuning!

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We have an issue with a Link CANBUS Lambda I feel it is something with data-rate/communication as the Lambda unit needs connecting to battery 12v to make it work , connecting it to a ignition switched live stops the unit outputting any data ( no canbus faults shown in CAN F12) We are also using the same canbus trunk to run a Race Tech Dash and this works all the time and removing this item from the canbus set up does not allow the Lambda unit to work. We are using a Link Lambda unit on a Thunder ECU. ( car was designed to run a earlier Link ECU before the Thunder was released so we specced the car with a Link Canbus Lambda and not to use the Lambda set up to drive the LSU connected direct to the Thunder.

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On 3/15/2017 at 5:32 AM, krohelm said:

Iterated with Simon, and regardless of the log files and voltmeter measurements - I ran a new power supply pair and it works (I tried this parallel twice before).  While I'm curious what was wrong with the +/- I had, I just do not care enough to root cause it; my car works and Link tech support is amazing.  On to tuning!

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, I think I am in a similar scenario to yourself as am getting the same errors.

How did you end up wiring it in the end to resolve it and what kind if lengths were your +/- cables ?

Thanks in advance

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36 minutes ago, lysaer said:

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, I think I am in a similar scenario to yourself as am getting the same errors.

How did you end up wiring it in the end to resolve it and what kind if lengths were your +/- cables ?

Thanks in advance

I have just replied to your other thread, I think it will be easier to keep troubleshooting all in the one post.

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Hi @lysaer, I had a very brief time where it worked fine, then it went back to the same old problems.  In the process of working with Link support, I was given a debug CAN configuration for the CAN-Lambda that causes it to power up the LSU 4.9 sensor while the engine is off.  I have to use that configuration file and this is startup sequence:

  1. Key on.
  2. Wait 30-90 seconds while original post cycle spins.
  3. Observe lambda target indicator on dash flip from 0 to something above 0 (indicates o2 sensor has quit flapping and is active)
  4. Start engine.

It never completes the heat cycle while the engine is on, with the possible exception of when it's already warm enough you might be able to get away with starting the engine while it isn't locked on.

I have used original Toyota power/ground wires, fresh power/ground wires from the ECU 12v input (rests at 14.6 while running) about 36 inches long, and I have jumped the CAN-Lambda with 18 inch wires directly from the battery.  In fact, I've powered the CAN-Lambda from a battery that is separate from the vehicle electrical system (18 inch leads) to isolate a problem with the car's power and the OP cycle continues regardless.

I've attached the stream configuration my CAN-Lambda does not work without.  I've tried 2 CAN-Lambdas and 4 or 5 LSU 4.9's, nothing has worked aside from this stream and the above startup process.  The bright side is, it does work haha...  I just got back from my first track day last weekend, and the instructor was vocally impressed with the way the engine ran.  I never had a chance to tell him it had a Link in it :-).  If I ever got this completely resolved I'd be incredibly happy - but I have no clue what else to try.  Good luck!

 

BTW, you should not use this configuration file.  I use it, but I take 100% responsibility for using it in my own car.  Just sharing it here for posterity & thread completeness.

canlambda_test_stream.lcs

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I have found that the CAN Lambda is quite sensitive to transient supply dropouts.  The alternative wiring below is in the new CAN Lambda instructions and includes a 22µF capacitor in the supply to the unit.  I have had several CAN lambda units that report faults and the addition of this capacitor has solved the problem every time.  

I think Link should update the online PDF file to make this the recommended setup, as the diagram below seem to only be included with the new CAN Lambda modules.  (IMHO, the addition of the 22µF capacitor inside the CAN Lambda module would solve the problem long term).

CANLambda.thumb.jpg.321d325fa9e82199fdc7962b0eb6132d.jpg

 

Regards,

  Richard.

 

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It seems to be a CAN Lambda specific issue as I can power a Fury (and the Lambda heater) from the same wires and not run into any of the issues experienced with the CAN Lambda. 

Also, the capacitor needs to be as close as possible to the CAN Lambda to minimise any supply problems, this creates another issue which is having an unprotected component in an engine bay which is a harsh environment, I wouldn't expect the cap to last more than a couple of years in this environment.

 

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Holy smokes, why am I only hearing of this now?  I added a 22uf Nichicon (switching the power wires to nicer crimped Deutsch pins too) and just started the car, 0 waiting with key on.  Within a few seconds, while it was running, the LSU 4.9 was operating normally.  This has never happened before.

These CAN-Lambda devices should come with the capacitor already on the plug, or better yet... in the potted enclosure.  The stark difference in operation is nothing short of miraculous. 

image.png.c16d048d33212cff157c16401174abc4.png

 

image.png.10f9de0f6c29a404c26dc0773f888c86.png

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On 11/24/2018 at 2:39 AM, Adamw said:

I have just replied to your other thread, I think it will be easier to keep troubleshooting all in the one post.

Yeah I just was having a search and it seemed like the exact same error so was going to see how he resolved it

 

23 hours ago, Richard Hill said:

I have found that the CAN Lambda is very susceptible to transient supply dropouts.  The alternative wiring below is in the new CAN Lambda instructions and includes a 22µF capacitor in the supply to the unit.  I have had several CAN lambda units that report faults and the addition of this capacitor has solved the problem every time.  

I think Link should update the online PDF file to make this the recommended setup, as the diagram below seem to only be included with the new CAN Lambda modules.  (IMHO, the addition of the 22µF capacitor inside the CAN Lambda module would solve the problem long term).

CANLambda.thumb.jpg.321d325fa9e82199fdc7962b0eb6132d.jpg

 

Regards,

  Richard.

 

Interesting, I will look into this, going to connect direct to a battery jump pack for now

23 hours ago, AbbeyMS said:

So the capacitor "quietens" the 12V signal down @Richard Hill W ehave seen CanLambda stop working when more electrical items are turned on , pulling the 12volt supply from the battery sorts these issue normally but cant be a long term fix

 

14 hours ago, krohelm said:

Holy smokes, why am I only hearing of this now?  I added a 22uf Nichicon (switching the power wires to nicer crimped Deutsch pins too) and just started the car, 0 waiting with key on.  Within a few seconds, while it was running, the LSU 4.9 was operating normally.  This has never happened before.

These CAN-Lambda devices should come with the capacitor already on the plug, or better yet... in the potted enclosure.  The stark difference in operation is nothing short of miraculous. 

image.png.c16d048d33212cff157c16401174abc4.png

 

image.png.10f9de0f6c29a404c26dc0773f888c86.png

Hmm I might give this a try as well since it seems to have worked for you

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On 11/24/2018 at 11:15 PM, krohelm said:

Holy smokes, why am I only hearing of this now?  I added a 22uf Nichicon (switching the power wires to nicer crimped Deutsch pins too) and just started the car, 0 waiting with key on.  Within a few seconds, while it was running, the LSU 4.9 was operating normally.  This has never happened before.

These CAN-Lambda devices should come with the capacitor already on the plug, or better yet... in the potted enclosure.  The stark difference in operation is nothing short of miraculous. 

image.png.c16d048d33212cff157c16401174abc4.png

 

image.png.10f9de0f6c29a404c26dc0773f888c86.png

What size deutsch pins are they please, going to redo mine as well 

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2 minutes ago, lysaer said:

What size deutsch pins are they please, going to redo mine as well 

They are size 20 DTM.

Note if you are still getting errors when connected to a standalone jumper pack not attached to the car at all (except CAN) then I dont think we can blame it on a dirty power supply anymore.  Im leaning toward you having a faulty unit.

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I use DTM all over the place.  It's worth the scratch to get a crimp tool in my opinion!  This is the one I use for DTM's:  https://prowireusa.com/p-1813-deutsch-dtm-mil-size-20-crimp-tool.aspx

@Adamw:  Totally, that's where I'm at but in my case 2 had the same problem despite providing clean separate power.  I'm in love with the cap fix :-).  If y'all want to try the dance again I've got my CAN-Lambda mounted in a convenient location & could return you this one for analysis.  Not sure if we'd root cause it, but anyways feel free to reach out.

I hope the cap fix works for you too @lysaer.  Your thread sounds familiar :(

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On 11/26/2018 at 4:24 AM, krohelm said:

I use DTM all over the place.  It's worth the scratch to get a crimp tool in my opinion!  This is the one I use for DTM's:  https://prowireusa.com/p-1813-deutsch-dtm-mil-size-20-crimp-tool.aspx

@Adamw:  Totally, that's where I'm at but in my case 2 had the same problem despite providing clean separate power.  I'm in love with the cap fix :-).  If y'all want to try the dance again I've got my CAN-Lambda mounted in a convenient location & could return you this one for analysis.  Not sure if we'd root cause it, but anyways feel free to reach out.

I hope the cap fix works for you too @lysaer.  Your thread sounds familiar :(

Re-did all my wiring etc and added the cap but had no luck, today I swapped out the sensor and now it is all working, it needed all the power wiring sorted anyways and I have left the cap in so hopefully now it all stays working

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