AngelPowy Posted December 17, 2017 Report Share Posted December 17, 2017 Hi, I am currently working to mount a G4+ xtreme black ecu on a Z20let engine with stock Crank sensor. But I have lot of timing drift on the car. when I do calibrate with timing locked to 10*, It's ok at 1000 RPM it go to 0* at 2000 RPM -10 at 3000 and so on.. As the sensor is a vr one, I thought about polarity and I tried in both polarity but it does not seems to solve the matter. Do you have some idea of what goes wrong? Best Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted December 17, 2017 Report Share Posted December 17, 2017 I dont think I have even seen a Z20 for about 20years... Can you do a trigger scope at idle and attach it here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George GEP Posted December 17, 2017 Report Share Posted December 17, 2017 what ignition coils are u running and what igniters? what dwell ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted December 18, 2017 Report Share Posted December 18, 2017 17 hours ago, Adamw said: I dont think I have even seen a Z20 for about 20years... LOL, I was assuming a Nissan Z20... I just realised Vaxhual have a Z20 too, which is probably what you are talking about.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelPowy Posted December 18, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2017 Yes is vauxhall Z20 that I am using. And I am using stock Z20 coil with 1.8 ms dwell at 14v Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted December 18, 2017 Report Share Posted December 18, 2017 Can you please do the triggerscope. Does the coil have built in ignitors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelPowy Posted December 18, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2017 I did one when I was wih the car (he car is in a garage far from my house), I’ll post it tonight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelPowy Posted December 18, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2017 I forgot to give you a pictures of the coilpack: http://www.migweb.co.uk/gallery/data/509/DSCF0071.JPG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelPowy Posted December 19, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2017 Here is a picture of the trigger scope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted December 20, 2017 Report Share Posted December 20, 2017 Thanks for the scope pic. That looks ok. Crank sensor wiring is correct. Since the rising and falling edge of trig 2 is close to the gap that can potentially be an issue. I would try setting sync mode to "Cam Level" in this case (offset may need changing by 360 if it wont start after that change). The picture of the coil doesnt help much and I cant find much info on it. How sure are you that it does have built-in ignitors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelPowy Posted December 20, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2017 Thank you for this answer. I assue you are dealing with trigger 2 sync mode and it's already on "cam level". And yes I Do think that it has buil-in-ignitors. I give you a pic of the coil stock signal at idle if it can provide you some information. 5V/div and 1ms/div Ps: Additionnal Info on the coil there is 6 pin +12v and ground and 4 signal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelPowy Posted December 20, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2017 maybe changing risind edge by falling edge and add 360º to trigger offset? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted December 20, 2017 Report Share Posted December 20, 2017 The oscilloscope picture above shows the coil doesn’t have a built in ignitor, you will have to use an external one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelPowy Posted December 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 Thos signal os the output of the stock ecu. I’m not sure if you understood me. So I still’need an external ignitor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 Yes, that signal shows there is no ignitor in the coil - I suspect the factory ECU must have the ignitor inside as this waveform shown appears to be an "ignition primary" wave form. Notice it initially sits at 13V, then drops to 0V, for about 3ms (dwell), then sharply rises to ~40V for the spark. If there were ignitors in the coils this waveform would be upside down, it would only be 0-5V or 0-12V and there would be no reflection or "ringing" from the spark. So yes, you will need to add an ignitor or change to coils with ignitors built in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelPowy Posted December 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 Ok If I correctly understand you actually coilpack is wiring wrong and I should add an external ignitor between the ecu and the coilpack. But how did car firing till now? And can this low voltage coil driving cause this delay ( much effort to produce spark maybe?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted December 22, 2017 Report Share Posted December 22, 2017 16 hours ago, AngelPowy said: Ok If I correctly understand you actually coilpack is wiring wrong and I should add an external ignitor between the ecu and the coilpack. Correct. 16 hours ago, AngelPowy said: But how did car firing till now? Sometimes they will work without an ignitor but you will have a very weak spark (and extreme timing drift). 16 hours ago, AngelPowy said: And can this low voltage coil driving cause this delay ( much effort to produce spark maybe?) Your coil expects a falling signal to tell it to start charging (start of dwell), then will spark on the rising edge. A coil with built in ignitors is opposite to this - it starts charging on a rising edge then sparks on a falling edge. So without an ignitor and the ECU set to falling spark edge your coil is actually firing at the start of the dwell time (say about 3ms earlier than the ecu thinks). 3ms is not much angular timing error at low RPM, but as RPM increases, 3ms becomes quite a big angular error. This is where your "drift" comes from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelPowy Posted December 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 25, 2017 Hi, first of all Merry Christmas to you. Let me thank you twice for your precious help. I did not suspect coil at any time. We are going to order the external ignitor to finish our standalone ECU setup. Do you have a preferred external ignitor or I can take whatever I want? Best Regards Guillaume Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shedley Posted December 26, 2017 Report Share Posted December 26, 2017 16 hours ago, AngelPowy said: Hi, first of all Merry Christmas to you. Let me thank you twice for your precious help. I did not suspect coil at any time. We are going to order the external ignitor to finish our standalone ECU setup. Do you have a preferred external ignitor or I can take whatever I want? Best Regards Guillaume I always use the bosch ignitors, or the link ecu items, wich are infact the same units ... only good results with it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelPowy Posted December 26, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2017 By bosch you mean 0 227 100 211 module I think? I will try to get this one to see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shedley Posted December 26, 2017 Report Share Posted December 26, 2017 I mostly use the three channel items (on bmw S54 engines). But for a 4cil. Those will work fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelPowy Posted December 29, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 29, 2017 Stupid question, I did wire input to link ign 1 2 3 and 4 and output to coil. Spark edge set to rising edge. Was I wrong or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted December 29, 2017 Report Share Posted December 29, 2017 Spark edge should be set to falling when using a conventional ignitor, the “signal” gets inverted by the ignitor so the coil sees the opposite. Wiring sounds correct. Note you will need to check base timing again as it will probably move a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelPowy Posted December 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 Ok so my spark edge was wrong. I did base timing again on the car but 2 output was not working so car did not run well. Finally i did wiring it wrong ( without external igniter again) i lowered dwell to 0,4ms and no more timing drift. But how bad this erratic wiing is nefast for the Ecu? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelPowy Posted January 6, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2018 Hi and thank you again for your help. The bosch 211 I bought was defective and I got a new one. Now car start and run well without timing drift. Time to have fun now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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