Evo Thunder Wiring

[Sheik]

TL;DR - Doing a Patch Harness for a Thunder ECU to a 3Plug Evo8MR. Wanting some clarification on parts of the project and some of the translation between the existing Plugin ECU and the Thunder.  

So I am going to be asking a lot of questions here... Some of them probably deserve their own threads but the list has got too long to split it all up. For this reason, if anyone can comment on any specific part of this post and not the other please feel free to do so and do not feel like you have to answer the whole thing. Also no posting "take it to a shop". This is my hobby so I do enjoy it and don’t mind the time investment.

For some background, I have an Evo8 MR which I have installed a G4+ Plugin unit into and tuned myself. It is running great and the whole experience with the software and hardware has been great. With the knowledge in mind of what I plan to do with the car at a later date, I have also since purchased a G4+ Thunder which I am a fairly long way down the rabbit hole of creating and installing via a Patch Harness to connect it to the existing ECU loom plus a Deutsch HD30 bulkhead plug to handle the extra bits. Fun times! However, I am at the stage where I have finished accumulating most of my parts and wire. The majority of my questions have come about from my time spent developing the wiring diagram for this to all work.

My wiring diagram has been based of the cross-referencing of dozens of documents, including the thunder diagrams, pinout guides for the G4+ plugin, along with a couple of community created diagrams which I confirmed via the actual electrical manual. Between your G4+ pinout guide and these diagrams, I can see that there are a number of seemingly important pins which you guys do not reference in your pinout diagrams. Some of these are evidently omitted because they dont "appear" within the ECU and thus nobody would need to test or manage them (ie. 5v ground, 12v backup wires). But there is a small clump of others which have no reference or explanation that I would love to get some information on if there is anyone holding such knowledge. The one thing I am hoping is not the case is that the information is omitted because its be controlled 'behind the scenes' and/or proprietary because I will have no way of duplicating the function on the Thunder unit. Thus shooting my "if the plugin can do it, surely this monster can!?" theory right out the window... 

Furthermore for those of you playing at home, I have a JDM 3plug ECU harness just so you know what diagrams I am looking at. And with that we have the pinout list and the actual questions:

Pin 5 - Secondary Air Control Solenoid Valve (Not here to get flamed about still having this installed) - No reference anywhere in pinouts - has a listed pin function of Aux - Ignition 6 - Cant find where it is used/activated on the basemap!?!?

Pin 16 - Purge Control Solenoid Valve. This one is referenced on Pin Function Aux Ign 6, but is referenced as Pin 4 on the Pinouts sheet?! I cant find a single wiring diagram that says its located on Pin 4. Again, this isn't referenced by any controls or tables on the basemap.

Pin 8 and 52 - These refer to 'Alternator G' and 'Alternator FR' respectively - No reference anywhere in Pinouts OR pin functions. Could not really find much other than speculation about what it did online either. Would love some definitive info here.

I would also appreciate some guidance on how to handle main relay wiring using this patch harness technique. My understanding is that the Thunder has its own "Main Relay" so I will need to somehow trigger the existing one. If I can get some tips on how to go about that it would be great! This is one of those things I wouldn't go 'guessing' with as it could blow/melt things if I get it wrong. Will involve a lot of extra reading if someone cant answer this one for me...

If anyone can clarify on any of these points it would be awesome - but I am also looking for any overlooked road blocks with this transplant if anyone can flag them. I never really imagined that the Thunder wouldn't work when the Plugin would, but finding these few things that are under the radar, I am asking the question first before I get any deeper.

 

Thanks in advance!

[Adamw]

13 hours ago, Sheik said:

Pin 5 - Secondary Air Control Solenoid Valve (Not here to get flamed about still having this installed) - No reference anywhere in pinouts - has a listed pin function of Aux - Ignition 6 - Cant find where it is used/activated on the basemap!?!?

 

13 hours ago, Sheik said:

Pin 16 - Purge Control Solenoid Valve. This one is referenced on Pin Function Aux Ign 6, but is referenced as Pin 4 on the Pinouts sheet?! I cant find a single wiring diagram that says its located on Pin 4. Again, this isn't referenced by any controls or tables on the basemap.

Sounds like you have this a bit mixed up?  Pin 4 is the SAS and it is connected to Ign 6.  It would typically only be used for some rally antilag setups so thats why you dont see it in the base map.

Our diagram shows the purge valve is connected to pin 16, but in our plugin ECU we dont control that at all.

 

13 hours ago, Sheik said:

Pin 8 and 52 - These refer to 'Alternator G' and 'Alternator FR' respectively - No reference anywhere in Pinouts OR pin functions. Could not really find much other than speculation about what it did online either. Would love some definitive info here.

Our plug-in doesnt have anything connected to these pins, they are not really needed.  I believe the Factory ECU grounds the "G pin" at wide open throttle to turn the alternator off.  You can connect that to an aux out if you wish.  Without it connected it will just charge all the time.

 

13 hours ago, Sheik said:

I would also appreciate some guidance on how to handle main relay wiring using this patch harness technique. My understanding is that the Thunder has its own "Main Relay" so I will need to somehow trigger the existing one. If I can get some tips on how to go about that it would be great! This is one of those things I wouldn't go 'guessing' with as it could blow/melt things if I get it wrong. Will involve a lot of extra reading if someone cant answer this one for me...

Connect Thunder "Ign Sw " pin to Evo pin 99 (ignition switch).   Connect Thunder "Main relay +" to Evo pin 57.  Connect Thunder "Main relay -" to any ground.

ECU +14V can connect to Evo pins 59 & 47.  You may also need to add a separate relay for "+14V Aux9/10" power supply if you are fitting E-throttle.

[Sheik]

Adamw - you continue to answer all my questions with a crazy depth of knowledge and experience. I feel like I more owe you a carton than a beer at this point... You are a serious asset to the company!

You obviously know this stuff backwards to pick up that I somehow managed to mix up my findings for the SAS and Evap/Purge systems. My bad on bamboozling things. This is probably not the best thing to be doing at midnight after working 12 hours...

To clarify on the SAS - I said Pin 5 on there because on every loom diagram I can find online and in the electrical manual shows Pin 5 having the SAS and Pin 4 as having no function connected to it. With that said, I have been looking exclusively at JDM 8MR diagrams. It is quite possibly one of those ones that hops around. Either way, not a system I will be making use of anytime soon. 

In relation to the purge solenoid (which allegedly resides on Pin 16), I am indeed a little confused so it would sound mixed up (Pin 16) - My understanding is that this is a separate unit that allows air/fuel vapor to pass through some channel from the fuel tank to a charcoal canister and then into the intake manifold for emissions compliance.  Again, glad its not something to worry about.

On both of of those systems, my largest concern was the presence controls that you guys may have had hard-coded into the ECU that was not something "transferable" to the Thunder. I totally appreciate that one of these units is basically useless and the other one is for rally. 

With the Alternator wiring, thats fantastic information! Some day in the future I hope to put this car will be in the 5 digit RPM limiter club. I will make an assumption that adding an extra 3000RPM to the alternator would move it out of its intended operating range and could cause some high voltages. This may be a tool to combat this if it happens. Just like the rest of it, its nice to know its there, but more-so that I dont have to worry about it.

For the relay wiring response you get 11/10. Just what I needed to know. The eThrottle info is valuable too as that is a future plan (because Evos need cruise control too...)

Will post a build thread when everything is finished. If it goes even half to plan, I think it will inspire at least a couple of other people to follow suit. Very exciting to be able to continue with the project without concerns.

Cheers! 

 

 

 

 

 

[ClintBHP]

You can also save a lot of messing about by connecting to the thunder and opening the EVO8 pclr Map file and downloading it to the ECU.

Just go through the outputs and make your wiring to suit the map.

Clint

[Sheik]

Thanks for the input Clint! These were my exact intentions. I am expecting that going from the Link CAN Lambda unit I have now to the onboard digital wideband within the Thunder will result in identical AFR readings and all ignition and injector calculations should also be identical. This ability to transfer the maps was really the main reason I decided to go with the Plugin first over going straight to the Thunder. 

[Sheik]

Sorry to resurrect thread - Just finalising the wiring for this project and realised that I dont have my 'Shield/Gnd' pins terminated to anything on any of my plugs. Saves a lot of background if I post here. lol.

My understanding is that these are for grounding shielded cables from things like Hall/Proximity sensors. I was unable to find any references to shield grounding anywhere for the Evo so am I safe to assume that the Shield/Gnd pins do not have to be utilised for my particular project? How do our Crank and Cam sensors work if this is the case? Presumably grounded somewhere else in the harness??

[ClintBHP]

On the Plugin most of the Grounds and shields are tied together inside the ECU, you can test this by using continuity test on a multimeter.

It is important that ALL power grounds for the ECU are connected and are wired separate to the engine block.

All the Sensor Grounds should be spliced and grounded to a sensor ground pin.

All shielded wire should be grounded at the ECU end only.

 

 

[Sheik]

Thats awesome Clint - thanks for the reply. Had most of those points checked but couldn't make heads or tails of the shield grounds. Its good to know how it works from the internal perspective too as it confirms that its basically 'just another thing to ground' rather than something unusual. I will assume there will be no issue while its all connected to the factory harness. 

I also read about passing the shield ground through the bulkhead plugs as well (even though I dont think I will ever be making use of it) by daisy chaining them together and passing them all through a single pin. Was a tidy solution to tuck away for later. 

Thanks Again

[Sheik]

Okay - So we are much further down the rabbit hole now with this project. Plenty of hurdles and still a few to go before I can turn the key. I have hit a couple I would love some external input on because I am scratching my head a lot. I am putting the questions here because they are going to be too obscure for their own thread.

In order:

The most concerning one is my 12v power readings in the ECU. I am getting the following:

    - Multimeter (straight onto the battery) 11.82v
    - 12v internal (in ECU Runtimes - A-Loom???) 10.93v
    - 12v D-Loom Supply (in ECU Runtimes) 11.85v
    -12V B-Loom Supply (in ECU Runtimes)  3.41v

Now for the D-Loom, I have run a brand new 12v constant. Hence that delicious reading there.

For the A-Loom and B-Loom, I have just joined them with a crimp splice onto the existing 12v harness pin. I am assuming 12v internal is referenced to the A-Loom input. You can imagine my confusion when I have the 12v internal reading 10.93v (which is a bit low but not terrible) while the B-Loom is reading 3.41v off the exact same wire. Does this mean its overloaded??? Haven't even started the car yet. If anybody can give me a good reason for this it would be much appreciated. At the moment, I am re-crimping the join to see if it was somehow a trash join despite getting zero resistance over it. Failing any kind of success from the re-crimp, I am going to most likely move the B-Loom 12v supply over to the D-Loom. Off the back of that, can anyone tell me how many amps each of these 12v ECU rails take??? I very much doubt its an issue but I dont want to overload the wire I am using or fuse it wrong. This is kind of outside of the initial project scope.

If there are any bored souls out there this Good Friday that can answer this and keep me working there will be some good karma headed your way.

Thanks in advance! 

 

[Adamw]

Note the correct parameter to look at is named "batt voltage", this is what the ECU is seeing on pin A5.  The "12V internal" parameter is a regulated supply (used for aux pull-ups etc) so will usually be lower than ECU supply voltage. 

The 14V pins on the B & D connector will only pull significant current if you have E-throttle (upto ~8A) or are using high-side drive outputs on Aux 9/10/17/18/19/20 (upto 2A each).  If you are not using these auxes then those supplies will need very little current - probably only mA.

So from your info above it looks like it is probably just the B connector supply that is not good.  Are you using E-throttle?

[Sheik]

Thanks Adam,

I just re-wired things a little. It made no substantial difference so I am starting to think there is nothing specifically wrong with the 12v wiring but rather the relay triggering.

With the previous testing, I had both the A and B looms spliced and joined to Pin 47 (dont ask me why...I quite honestly dont know). I have since moved the B-Loom to Pin 59. I now have the A-Loom on 47 and the B-Loom on 59. Results were still as follows:

12v internal - 11.3
Aux 9/10 - 1.3
Aux 17/20 - 12.29
Batt Voltage - 1.3

This at least confirmed that BOTH of the main 12v runs are doing nothing. So it draws me back to the main engine relay config and I can already see some things that are probably wrong. For starters, I have the Main Relay Driver set to OFF and Ignition Switch is set to HIGH and by the looks of the diagram I think its supposed to be low??? I have terminated the "Ign Sw" to pin 99 and "Main Relay+" to Pin 57 as you suggested. Can you give me some guidance on where to look for such things and what to set them to?

I currently have no e-Throttle fitted. I have just run power to all channels for future use.

Many thanks.

[Adamw]

1 hour ago, Sheik said:

I have the Main Relay Driver set to OFF and Ignition Switch is set to HIGH and by the looks of the diagram I think its supposed to be low??? I have terminated the "Ign Sw" to pin 99 and "Main Relay+" to Pin 57 as you suggested. Can you give me some guidance on where to look for such things and what to set them to?

Main relay driver will need to be set to "ECU Hold Power", this is probably your problem.  Ignition Sw DI should be on level=high, pullup=off.

[Sheik]

Yep you nailed it.  Was not sure about all the main relay stuff at all. All the messing around with wiring has probably has saved me pain elsewhere though as the 12v is better distributed. 

Everything is behaving itself now. Not entirely sure how the ECU let me test most of the inputs/outputs without any power going to the 2 main spots. Glad I didnt axe anything. The strangest thing that happened throughout the I/O testing was the Aux3 for the boost control solenoid was somehow triggering the fuel pump... Behaves fine now that there is actual power.

Thanks once again for the amazingly prompt seemingly 24/7/365 support. 

[Sheik]

Alright - little further down the line now. She starts!!!

Its all behaving well so far. Only catch/issues that I can identify is that my Tacho and Speedo are not working. I am asking here first on the off-chance that this is an ECU problem... There is between little and no information on either of these in the Link Pinout Guides/Pin Function sheets and only one very isolated reference to Tacho on Pin 45 on a wiring diagram I have. There doesn't seem to be any reference to Speedo or Tacho outputs on the Plug'n'Play either so I am getting the feeling this is not something you guys can answer, but it would be great to eliminate it being an ECU thing. 

Cheers.

[Adamw]

Tacho is on Pin 45 - on our plug-in ECU it is driven directly off the crank sensor (this is a leftover from when our plugin ecu's had less available aux outputs so it was done to spare an output).  As far as I know the speedo is not connected to the ECU - although it probably does share the VSS signal somewhere along the line.  

[Sheik]

Cool to hear and explains why it doesn't exist anywhere. Based on a couple of electrical diagrams I have seen while looking around, I think your theory about sharing VSS signal might end up being on point. There are a lot of crossovers between the Tacho and speedo gauges so based on the fact that both functioned fine with the plugin, putting Pin 45 on an Aux may just fix both of them. Tomorrow is another day.

Thanks once again.

[Sheik]

Well Pin 45 got terminated to Aux 2 and is working as expected now... unfortunately my Speedo is still AWOL. Any final suggestions here before I have to start digging deep??? Hell it could even be a fuse at this point.

Ultimately it was working on the PnP... So I presume there was some trick used with that but whether its documented, or you can disclose it, or if I can replicate it, is another thing.

 

[Adamw]

31 minutes ago, Sheik said:

So I presume there was some trick used with that but whether its documented, or you can disclose it, or if I can replicate it, is another thing.

No as I said earlier, the speedo is not connected to the ECU at all in our plugin ECU or the factory ECU.  Your problem is elsewhere.

[Sheik]

As it turns out, the Speedo was working after having fixed the Tacho on Pin 45, but I didnt make the car move fast enough to 'wake it up'. Its a Mitsubishi thing... Once I got it out on the road it sorted itself out again.

I am declaring this project a success!
A great many thanks for your support AdamW. Once again you are a tribute to the company and its great to have this kind of support available to people like myself. Thanks to Clint for pitching in as well. It all helps.

As is with the first time around for anything like this, you come out the other end with a long list of things you would have done differently. But having ironed out all the kinks in my Visio diagram, Version 2.0 will definitely be an improvement. Certainly not scheduled for anytime soon though... Need to forget how annoying some of it was. 

If anyone is reading this and mad enough to have the same intentions, drop me a line. I am sure I could save you a fair bit of time.