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iliasfyntanidis

Tuning Considerations

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Hi there.

I have started tuning my car and i am using the default values that are applied on the plug in units.I am using the MX5 map and after adjusting the Base Timing and the Master Fuel etc,etc i managed to fire the engine up.Congrats for the maps,great place to start if someone has a clue about what to do.

I am having some questions though and many to follow up in the future.

 

1)First i would like to know at the Ignition Main there is Igniton Delay option.There is also that exact oprtion on the Trigger Calibration.Probaply those 2 numbers should match,right they are the same thing?So entering a value in one field means that i have to enter the same amount on the other.

2)Whats the relation between Idle Base Positon Table and Idle Target RPM Table?If for some reason i would like to raise the idle RPM target should i have to adjust the value on the Idle Base Positon Table?The values on that table(Idle Base Positon Table)mean how fast the idle will rise or fall?Because i did raise the idle RPM target and i did not noticed any change on the Idle Base Positon Table.  

3)I have seen that my timing mark at 15 BTDC while it's stable at idle when i apply some throttle it drifts significantly.I have not adjusted the fitering option on Trigger Set Up for Crank(If that has to do with something)but i have adjusted the values that i am refering to in No1.Can't recall if i had them the same.My crank has 4 teeth and polarity is 100% correct because i used the pin of my OEM harness so only one wire towards Vipec plug accordingly.What can i do for that?

 

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9 hours ago, iliasfyntanidis said:

1)First i would like to know at the Ignition Main there is Igniton Delay option.There is also that exact oprtion on the Trigger Calibration.Probaply those 2 numbers should match,right they are the same thing?So entering a value in one field means that i have to enter the same amount on the other.

Yes, the same setting is available in two different places, you only need to adjust one and the other will change at the same time.

 

9 hours ago, iliasfyntanidis said:

2)Whats the relation between Idle Base Positon Table and Idle Target RPM Table?If for some reason i would like to raise the idle RPM target should i have to adjust the value on the Idle Base Positon Table?The values on that table(Idle Base Positon Table)mean how fast the idle will rise or fall?Because i did raise the idle RPM target and i did not noticed any change on the Idle Base Positon Table.  

It depends if you are using open loop or closed loop.  If using open loop the base position table tells the idle valve how far open to be, the idle target table has no effect.  In open loop mode the idle target table is only used for idle ignition control.

In closed loop mode the base position table is the starting position that the idle valve jumps to when idle conditions are first met, then the closed loop control will take over and adjust the valve position further if needed to make the RPM match the idle target.  The idea is the base position table can quickly get the idle valve somewhere close to where it needs to be then the closed loop only needs to make small corrections.  There are instructions in the help file how to tune idle control.  I suggest you start in open loop mode to build a good base position table.  Follow this page in help:  G4+ ECU Tuning Functions > Idle Speed Control >Open Loop ISC.

 

9 hours ago, iliasfyntanidis said:

3)I have seen that my timing mark at 15 BTDC while it's stable at idle when i apply some throttle it drifts significantly.I have not adjusted the fitering option on Trigger Set Up for Crank(If that has to do with something)but i have adjusted the values that i am refering to in No1.Can't recall if i had them the same.My crank has 4 teeth and polarity is 100% correct because i used the pin of my OEM harness so only one wire towards Vipec plug accordingly.What can i do for that?

Are you seeing this drift when the "set base timing" screen is open (so timing is locked)?  What ECU do you have?
 

 

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1)Thanks.

2)Will look into this deeper.

3)I am sure that the screen is closed but i am also sure that  i am sitting at 15 degrees on my ignition map and ISC ignition table.Will repeat the process and report back with the screen open.The ECU it's a Vipec i88 latest board  version,Serial Number 18553 running the latest firmware.

 

Some more questions...

4)What's the difference between PCLink G4+ V5.6.5.3338b ENG-JPN VV5.6.5(latest) and PCLink G4+ V5.6.5.3338 ENG-JPN V5.6.5. on the PC Link downloads?

 

As i have said i am using the example base map that it is included in the software.The map that i am using it's for the Mazda MX5 and suited for my needs.I have set my Master Fuel from 16ms(originally) to 7ms(I am using Siemens Deka 550EV14 fuel injectors) and i have not touched the fuel map values.

5)The question is..Is it better to have small master fuel and bigger values on the fuel table or the opposite?

6)What's the purpose of Master Fuel Trim?Other than turning the value of  Master Fuel decimal i dont see any other point.

Thanks in advance.

 

 

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15 hours ago, iliasfyntanidis said:

4)What's the difference between PCLink G4+ V5.6.5.3338b ENG-JPN VV5.6.5(latest) and PCLink G4+ V5.6.5.3338 ENG-JPN V5.6.5. on the PC Link downloads?

I actually think *3338 shouldnt be on the website still.  *3338b is the correct one.  From memory *3338 had problems connecting to old firmware.

 

16 hours ago, iliasfyntanidis said:

5)The question is..Is it better to have small master fuel and bigger values on the fuel table or the opposite?

For best resolution it is better to have a smaller master and bigger values in the fuel table.  The main thing you want to avoid is really small numbers in the fuel table - say if your biggest number is 30% you are going to struggle to tune idle.

The general advice is pick a master fuel that gives you numbers around 50% in the middle of your fuel table.

 

16 hours ago, iliasfyntanidis said:

6)What's the purpose of Master Fuel Trim?Other than turning the value of  Master Fuel decimal i dont see any other point.

Correct, they are basically the same, just using the trim you can get a finer adjustment.

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Well the timing light gun drifts a bit on idle,with the screen open but as soon as i raise the rev it's stable.The timing disc has 4 teeth not equally spaced.

I have unstable and week intake manifold pressure.Below it's a video showing the MAP signal(bottom left) on the Zeitronix display.The units are mmHg.The camshafts have 28° degrees overlap,244°/236° at 1mm of lift duration, 106° LSA and 12mm lift.

Some questions

I will alter my equation load source to BAP instead of MAP but does this has any effect while i am idling,standing still and i am in the sea surface.BAP works for BARO compensation which i don't understand if i need at the moment?Will this have any effect on idling or any effect at all?Asuming that i am not driving on a mountain course but in the city where the elevations are minimal.

I will also alter the load axis at my fuel table from MGP to TP as the instructions indicate.

1)I see that in the Base Maps for the MX5 you have in your equation load source MAP.But in your fuel table load axis you have MGP.Why MGP and not MAP?I have read in the instructions that MAP it is not recommended but i can not figure out why?

2)On your ignition map you have as a load axis MAP.Why not MGP as it is used in the fuel table?Can i use MGP as a load axis in the ignition map instead of MAP?

On my Zeitronix display i get a signal of 85 to 170 mmHg(fluctuating) which equals to(11 to 23 Kpa).Having on my ignition table MAP as load axis  i sit on my ignition table 6° BTDC.On my ignition table 6° degrees is 80 Kpa which equals to 600 mmHg.How is this possible?The runtime values show 84 Kpa MAP and  -17 Kpa MGP signal on the PC Link.Shouldn't i be sitting on the 15° degrees ignition angle as i have 11 to 23 Kpa(which my Zeitronix shows) intake manifold pressure?See the attached picture to see what the PC Link shows and what the Zeitronix display shows in order to become more understandable . 

 

 

Regarding the cold start i have read everything that has to do with it and also saw the webinars on HP Academy.But i need some help on the strategy to follow.

I have seen that with the ISC Control makes a huge difference(easier) if it turned from Open Loop to Closed Loop.It was indicated to me that i should try to make the car idle as best as i can with the Open Loop On and then turn On the Closed Loop.How can i keep my ISC solenoid to keep up with my desired idle target?In a previous post Adam,you told me that

'' It depends if you are using open loop or closed loop.  If using open loop the base position table tells the idle valve how far open to be, the idle target table has no effect.  In open loop mode the idle target table is only used for idle ignition control''

3)Should i adjust the Duty Cycle of the ISC and meet the desired rev level for a given ECT temp(The Idle RPM Table probably will be my guide as the idle target,BUT has no effect on Open Loop)????How will i reach the desired rev level ?

 

4)When i hit F12 i get oil temp readings although i have not installed  a gauge for oil?

 

Sorry for the long post.Probably some things might not make much sense or did not explained them correctly.

 

 

 

 

Στιγμιότυπο οθόνης (1).png

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20 hours ago, iliasfyntanidis said:

Well the timing light gun drifts a bit on idle,with the screen open but as soon as i raise the rev it's stable.The timing disc has 4 teeth not equally spaced.

This just appears to be because you have a lumpy idle and a low resolution trigger wheel.  The timing bounces around because the RPM is rapidly changing.  As you notice this effect will smooth out at higher RPM.

 

21 hours ago, iliasfyntanidis said:

I will alter my equation load source to BAP instead of MAP but does this has any effect while i am idling,standing still and i am in the sea surface.BAP works for BARO compensation which i don't understand if i need at the moment?Will this have any effect on idling or any effect at all?Asuming that i am not driving on a mountain course but in the city where the elevations are minimal.

I will also alter the load axis at my fuel table from MGP to TP as the instructions indicate.

I think that will be a good idea, load source = BAP and use TP as the load axis on the fuel table.  Then the unstable MAP has no effect on the amount of fuel injected.

 

21 hours ago, iliasfyntanidis said:

1)I see that in the Base Maps for the MX5 you have in your equation load source MAP.But in your fuel table load axis you have MGP.Why MGP and not MAP?I have read in the instructions that MAP it is not recommended but i can not figure out why?

MGP can keep fueling more consistant over large altitude changes.  This is often not relevant for many users, but more important for hill climbs and aircraft.

 

21 hours ago, iliasfyntanidis said:

2)On your ignition map you have as a load axis MAP.Why not MGP as it is used in the fuel table?Can i use MGP as a load axis in the ignition map instead of MAP?

5

You can use either on the ignition table, but if you are going to change the fuel table to TP then I would do the same for the ignition table.

 

21 hours ago, iliasfyntanidis said:

On my Zeitronix display i get a signal of 85 to 170 mmHg(fluctuating) which equals to(11 to 23 Kpa).Having on my ignition table MAP as load axis  i sit on my ignition table 6° BTDC.On my ignition table 6° degrees is 80 Kpa which equals to 600 mmHg.How is this possible?The runtime values show 84 Kpa MAP and  -17 Kpa MGP signal on the PC Link.Shouldn't i be sitting on the 15° degrees ignition angle as i have 11 to 23 Kpa(which my Zeitronix shows) intake manifold pressure?See the attached picture to see what the PC Link shows and what the Zeitronix display shows in order to become more understandable .

You Zeitronix shows -ve 85-170, so that is reading MGP, not MAP.  Standard atmosheric pressure at sea level is 760mmHg absolute, so your zeitronix reading "-170mmHg" would mean 760-170= 590mmHg or 79KPa absolute (MAP)

 

21 hours ago, iliasfyntanidis said:

3)Should i adjust the Duty Cycle of the ISC and meet the desired rev level for a given ECT temp(The Idle RPM Table probably will be my guide as the idle target,BUT has no effect on Open Loop)????How will i reach the desired rev level ?

Yes.

 

21 hours ago, iliasfyntanidis said:

4)When i hit F12 i get oil temp readings although i have not installed  a gauge for oil?

Most parameters will get a default value assigned if there is no input set up. This is not so important for stuff like oil pressure but if you think of inputs such as fuel temp or air temp for instance that is used in the fuel calculation the ECU needs a realistic number to use if there is no input assigned.

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24 minutes ago, Adamw said:

 

 

You can use either on the ignition table, but if you are going to change the fuel table to TP then I would do the same for the ignition table.

 

 

So what would be your recommendation for my load axis on my ignition map.MAP,MGP or TP?

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Merry Christams first of all to everyone.

I would to clear some things in my mind about cold start.I am trying to get a start up like my family car does or as close as i can get.Now i have a start up between 2-3 seconds which seems a bit high for my taste.I have in bold the exact names of the tables used in the PC Link and have an example in the end with realistic number so as to know if i am correct.

1)I would like to know the value of First Crank Enrich which in my case is 30% from where it's being applied/taken or created in the procedure?In the help file it says that additional fuel is being injected for the first engine revolution and under 400rpm.OK understood....What 30% means in realistic numbers?

Is this value of 30% being added to the Crank Enrichment Table ?

On my Crank Enrichment Table which is 2D table and ECT dependent i have for example on 20°C  130% fuel as Crank Enrichment.

So what would be as a final numerical number the  First Crank Enrichment?(In my fuel table  from 0 till 500 rpm i have 25 as a fuel value and on my Crank Enrichment Table on 20°C  i have 130% on my table )

What i have understood is that First Crank Enrichement is being added as a percentage to the Crank Enrichment Table which looks the fuel table.....?????

 

2)What would be the downsides of using wrong dead times on fuel injectors?I believe that my dead time table it's not correct.They are 550ccSiemens Deka fuel injectors.Any help/advice from experience would be great.What's the relationship between dead times and pulsewidth when traditional equation fuel mode is used? Below it's the dead time table as provided by the supplier. 

    6              7          8            9         10            11       12          13          14        15

4.999    2.024    1.33    1.032    0.883    0.685    0.586    0.487    0.387    0.338
 

3)How crucial is to adjust on Idle Speed Control the Open Loop before the Closed Loop?

4)Long shot but i will ask this one also.....On parking maneuvers the engine was shutting down very gently i might say.I was in a hurry with so may info on F12 can you please show me where to look first for that problem?

 

Thanks in advance for the help.

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On 12/26/2018 at 8:22 AM, iliasfyntanidis said:

1)I would like to know the value of First Crank Enrich which in my case is 30% from where it's being applied/taken or created in the procedure?In the help file it says that additional fuel is being injected for the first engine revolution and under 400rpm.OK understood....What 30% means in realistic numbers?

Is this value of 30% being added to the Crank Enrichment Table ?

On my Crank Enrichment Table which is 2D table and ECT dependent i have for example on 20°C  130% fuel as Crank Enrichment.

So what would be as a final numerical number the  First Crank Enrichment?(In my fuel table  from 0 till 500 rpm i have 25 as a fuel value and on my Crank Enrichment Table on 20°C  i have 130% on my table )

What i have understood is that First Crank Enrichement is being added as a percentage to the Crank Enrichment Table which looks the fuel table.....?????

They are all multipliers so they are all applied on top of each other.  I think the graph in the help file explains it reasonably well:

2nrpzqq.png

 

On 12/26/2018 at 8:22 AM, iliasfyntanidis said:

2)What would be the downsides of using wrong dead times on fuel injectors?I believe that my dead time table it's not correct.They are 550ccSiemens Deka fuel injectors.Any help/advice from experience would be great.What's the relationship between dead times and pulsewidth when traditional equation fuel mode is used? Below it's the dead time table as provided by the supplier. 

Usually if the injectors are not excessively large and the battery voltage is reasonably consistent they wont have a big impact if they are a little off, it will just get baked in to the fuel table numbers.

 

On 12/26/2018 at 8:22 AM, iliasfyntanidis said:

)How crucial is to adjust on Idle Speed Control the Open Loop before the Closed Loop?

Very.

 

On 12/26/2018 at 8:22 AM, iliasfyntanidis said:

4)Long shot but i will ask this one also.....On parking maneuvers the engine was shutting down very gently i might say.I was in a hurry with so may info on F12 can you please show me where to look first for that problem?

Set up an ECU log so that it is always recording a basic set of parameters, then at least after the fact you can download some data later on that may help give you some direction.

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Apart from first Crank Enrichment (have went from 15% to 80%) what else could be the cause of a startup that it's not so crisp? 

I have generally good values on Crank Enrichment Table and so on,i am idling at 13.7 AFR till the end of Warm Up Enrichment. 

What should I look for....? 

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Adam the engine is a Mazda Miata 1.6lt Engine.The engine has the following specs.

9.5 CR

Oversize 1mm Inlet and Outlet valves,double heavy duty springs,ported and polished head and cams with 12mm lift(See attached pdf).Other mods present but not related.

Exhaust its a 4-2-1 Maxim Header and the intake its stock at the moment.Fuel is being injected with 550cc Siemens Deka fuel injectors,coil plugs are from Toyota part number 90919-02240.No exhaust present,just the header.

Cam Trigger with 2T-1 and Crank Trigger with 4T.So its stock from the drop down menu trigger pattern on the ECU.NGK BKR6E-11 Spark Plugs,fresh fuel.Walbro 255 HP LPH fuel pump.

Also could you check the calibration tables and configuration of fuel and oil sensors.I am using Honeywell PX3.

They have  for 0.5Volts output voltage (0 psi absolute and 14.7 psi sealed gauge) and for 4.5Volts output  voltage they have (100 psi  absolute and 114.7 psi sealed gauge).Which values should i use on my Cal tables?Please see my program.

Have attached 3 attempts difficult to start.On the 1st the engine has been tottaly cold overnight.On the 3d attempt i have used the Pre Crank Prime with Key On.It has made a difference but the combustion chamber it's  probably warmer because i have tried cranking the engine and letting it idle previously,only a few seconds but everything plays its role.I believe that my issue it's trigger related basically not fuel related.Your experience please?

 

3701258.pdf

 

Difficult to Start Log 2019-01-1 6;30;08 pm.llg

Difficult to start 2 Log 2019-01-1 6;42;17 pm.llg

 

Mazda Miata Vi-PEC i88 Last Map.pclr

Difficult to Start 3 Log 2019-01-1 6;46;09 pm.llg

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I have switched my fuel map to TPS as a load axis and did yesterady quick tune in the cells till 4000rpm basically to break in the new engine.Great tool.

 

I have my ignition map to MGP as a load axis.Do you know if i switch to TPS what values should i enter?

I have camshafts that on idle produce only 3.5 psi of vacuum that's the reason for tuning via TPS.

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1 hour ago, iliasfyntanidis said:

I have my ignition map to MGP as a load axis.Do you know if i switch to TPS what values should i enter?

I can probably give you a starting point.  Is it a NA or boosted engine?

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