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citycash

phil till

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I have contacted many ECU manufactures including Link to determine what would be a suitable ECU for my UK spec 1991 Toyota Corolla Gti-16 valve.
The engine is the 3rd Generation 4AGE and has it's own KNOCK sensor and MAP sensor but does not have O2 sensor.
I had narrowed down the ECU options to the Atom G4+ but have had conflicting messages from Link support
So, before I click the buy it now button and possibly end up with the wrong ECU.
Can some one confirm whether or not the Atom G4+ can manage my KNOCK sensor and MAP sensor

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The Atom does not have knock control.  The lowest cost ecu we have with knock control is the Storm which is quite a step up in terms of price.  

Are you boosting it?  If you are staying NA I would not bother with knock control, you will have to do something pretty wrong to make one of those things knock dangerously.

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The engine is stock other that hight lift cams

It won't ever be boosted

The engine as it's own KNOCK sensor screwed into the cylinder head,

If I disconnect the knock sensor from, the engine, the car is undriveable

Why would I not bother with knock control,  the 30 year old standard ECU has managed it

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ECU Pin Out Identification

 

AE92 4A-GE 16V Non-TVIS (1990-91)

ECU Connections AE92 1990-91 Japan Spec

Socket Q (Gray 12 pin)

Pin #

Color

Label (ECU)

Connection

1

B-R

B1

EFI Main

2

R-W

Batt

BATT

3

Blu-G

CCO

Exhaust Temp Sensor

4

G-R

FC

Curcuit Opening relay(fuel)

5

G-W

ELS1

Stop Lamp Switch

6

R-Y

ACT

A/C Amplifier

7

B-R

B

EFI Main

8

R-Y

W

Check Engine Lamp

9

R

EGW

Exhaust Temp Warn. Lamp

10

B-W

A/C

Air Conditioner clutch

11

V-W

SPD

Speed Sensor (instrument panel)

12

B

ELS2

Idle Up Diode

 

 

 

 

Socket R (16pin Gray)

Pin #

Color

Label (ECU)

Connection

1

 

not used

 

2

BG-R

PIM

Vaccuum Sensor

3

W

THA

Intake Temp Sensor

4

W

THW

Vaccuum Sensor

5

 

not used

 

6

B

OX

O2 sensor

7

 

not used

 

8

R-W

VF

Diagnosis Connctor

9

BR

E2

Throttle Position Sensor

10

R

VTA

Throttle Position Sensor

11

Y

VCC

Vaccuum Sensor

12

Blu

IDL

Throttle Position Sensor

13

 

not used

 

14

B

KNK

Knock Sensor

15

Blu-W

T

Diagnosis Connctor

16

BR

E21

Vaccuum Sensor

 

 

 

 

Socket S (26 pin Gray)

Pin #

Color

Label (ECU)

Connection

1

 

not used

 

2

B-W

STA

Starter

3

B-Y

IGF

Ignitor

4

R

NE

Distributor

5

G

G2

Distributor

6

 

not used

 

7

 

not used

 

8

R

ECT

TEMS Suspension Contoller

9

B

VISC

VSV Idle Up

10

 

not used

 

11

 

not used

 

12

G-R

#10

Injector 1,3

13

BR

E01

 

14

 

not used

 

15

B-W

NSW

Neutral Start Switch

16

 

not used

 

17

W

G-

Distributor

18

B

G1

Distributor

19

Y-R

L3

TEMS Suspension Contoller

20

Y-G

L2

TEMS Suspension Contoller

21

Y-Blu

L1

TEMS Suspension Contoller

22

B

IGT

 

23

 

not used

 

24

BR

E1

Ground

25

G-Y

#20

Injector 2,4

26

BR

E02

Ground

 

Pin outs-1.jpg

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17 hours ago, citycash said:

Why would I not bother with knock control,  the 30 year old standard ECU has managed it

It is up to you.  Just if you want knock control you will need a more expensive ECU and in my experience if you are in a country that has reasonably consistent fuel octane it is very unlikely it will ever be needed/used with a NA engine.  

The reason for knock control in the OEM ECU is it had to run the engine safely on a huge range of fuels and huge range of intake temps - anything from the premium fuel it was designed for all the way down to the poorest quality columbian 70MON fuel.  

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It's not a case of "if I want knock control" the engine has it and it needs it to run smoothly

a few years ago I blew one these engines

I then spent ages trying to find another 4AGE and eventually found one from a breakers yard, what I didn't know as that the engine I bought was an earlier TVIS version without a knock sensor.

By the time I realised it was too late, the engine was in the car and there was no way retro fit the knock sensor to the engine

The car could not be driven properly as it would hesitate at traffic lights and traffic island, or under and kind of acceleration, it would knock and vibrate.

I traded the car in for another to get rid of it

So really what I need is an programmable ECU that can handle  an external knock sensor and and external MAP sensor.

The supplier in the UK Fensport told me that the link atomG4 would be suitable for my car but you are telling me otherwise.

So as it will cost around £1,000 I really don't want buy something I find out to be unsuitable the day it's on the ramps at the tuning shop and the guy tells me I wasted my money.

 

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44 minutes ago, Ducie54 said:

Some searching of the website would have saved you a lot of headaches.

 

Mate, I've spent so much time searching the internet about this ECU the wife nicknamed me Google.

Looking at the spec chart that you have posted I don't see MAP sensor anywhere

Thanks for the input it's really helpful :D

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You also don't see Tps sensor, because they use one of the Analog input pins. 

You really need to write down all the sensors you need and go from there.

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14 hours ago, citycash said:

It's not a case of "if I want knock control" the engine has it and it needs it to run smoothly

Im not sure if you have a good grasp on what is required to run an engine.  A knock sensor is not required, it is only used as a safety function.  It may have been a requirement on the stock ECU to prevent it from going into some form of limp mode, but with an aftermarket ECU you can program them to work with whatever sensors you have.

I have done several 4AGE engines with Atoms and Monsoons with no knock control - including both supercharged and turbocharged versions.  They are not a particularly knock sensitive engine and if you have consistent fuel quality I would see no need for it with a naturally aspirated model.  As I mentioned earlier the older factory ECU's only had knock control to cope with a wider range of fuel qualities and environmental conditions.

 

14 hours ago, citycash said:

The supplier in the UK Fensport told me that the link atomG4 would be suitable for my car but you are telling me otherwise.

Far from It, Im also trying to tell you the Atom will be fine.  It is you that keeps saying you need knock control (which the Atom doesnt have).  If you really want knock control then you will have to go for a more expensive ECU that has knock control built in, but Im telling you it is 100% not needed with an engine like this.

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x2 on knock control not being essential on a 4age with aftermarket ECU.

Tuned correctly, they work just fine.  I personally see more engines fitted with aftermarket ECU's capable of knock control, where it is not configured as it takes time and money to correctly configure which many people don't want to pay for.

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On 3/18/2019 at 6:21 AM, Adamw said:

The reason for knock control in the OEM ECU is it had to run the engine safely on a huge range of fuels and huge range of intake temps - anything from the premium fuel it was designed for all the way down to the poorest quality columbian 70MON fuel.  

I doubt very much that the ECU for the UK 4AGE Corolla would have designed to run on the same fuel as you might find in Columbia.

The ECU part number for the UK model is unique to this car/engine combination, in the UK we never get anything less than 92 unleaded

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if you're going with an aftermarket ECU that can do knock control, you'll want to replace the stock Toyota 4ag sensor with something like a bosch donut sensor, it will be more reliable and give better readings than the single wire Toyota sensor

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Thank you for the replies, It's all very informative but what I haven't been fathomed out from here or any other forums, why us the the knock control IS NOT REQUIRED, on a modern ECU ! The knock must be managed somewhere surely.

Also what about the MAP sensor ? my car has one, it's wired into the ECU, so it must be doing something and if it's no longer required by a modern ECU .. How come.?

I'd really just like a better understand of why these features that were once important, no longer are.

I watched a Haltech youtube video about tuning out knock and it was very interesting and it sort implied that tuners tend not to be bothered about it

Here is a link

The guy seems to know what he's talking about but I'd be please to hear views about it

 

 

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Map sensor is one of the choices on any analog input on any of the ecu range , its not specific .

Although not listed in the form above , some of the ecu's do have an onboard Map sensor , in the likes of the Monsoon, that lists 4 AN inputs its actually a 5th

As far as knock is concerned, if your motor has moderate compression ratio for the fuel your using  and a large window of ign advance before you induce knock and you will see power drop off from over advance well before you get the knock, 

 

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It doesn't matter if you have an onboard map sensor or not, you can still use the 4ag's original map sensor, just wire it to a spare AN Volt input and assign it as a map sensor in the software, then if you have an onboard map sensor, disable that in the software.  In my view, the importance of knock control comes down to how prone your engine is to knock on the common locally available fuel in addition to how well it is mapped.  Eg, a Subaru EJ257 is a lot more prone to knock than a 10.3:1 compression 4age

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20 hours ago, citycash said:

Thank you for the replies, It's all very informative but what I haven't been fathomed out from here or any other forums, why us the the knock control IS NOT REQUIRED, on a modern ECU ! The knock must be managed somewhere surely.

 

How sensitive an engine is to knock is determined by many factors, but the main ones would be cylinder pressure, combustion chamber design, intake air temperature and fuel octane.  Turbo or supercharged engines are typically far more sensitive as the turbo increases two of those main factors - cylinder pressure and intake temperature.

An engine will make best power when the ignition advance can cause the cylinder pressure to peak at the correct crank angle - typically around 15°ATDC.  When you can achieve this it is called "MBT" (Maximum Brake Torque), basically the ignition timing that produces the maximum torque for that RPM/load.  With many turbo engines on pump gas you cant actually achieve MBT, the engine starts to knock well before it has enough advance to achieve MBT, so we say it is a "knock limited" engine.  With a knock limited engine the amount of power it makes will be determined by how close you run the timing to the point that it will knock, so knock control with a knock limited engine means you can run closer to the maximum power/torque level with some safety net if fuel, boost or temperatures vary.  An ECU with knock control capability in this case is nice to have.

A naturally aspirated 4AGE on the other hand, has many things in its favour in terms of knock sensitivity - good combustion chamber design, low cylinder pressure, no turbo heating the air, and since you're in the UK you have reasonable fuel octane too. So it is nothing like a knock limited engine.  With a 4AGE, you will reach MBT well before it is anywhere near knocking.  That means if the engine is tuned properly you have a huge safety net before knock can happen.  As long as you dont go putting kerosene in the fuel tank then it is never going to knock.  

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Thank you for the response to the original post.

As is often the case with when venturing in to a new realm, such as in my case replacing the old ECU with relatively old technology to a bang up to date one, it's easy to be get overwhelmed by amount of information that is available on-line BUT Information is not knowledge

Looking at ECUs and their capabilities and terminology is something that I have had zero interest in until now and I’m sure that once I have sourced one and had it fitted and mapped I will have no reason to go searching the net with regards to this situation for quite some time.

So when embarking on the search for an upgrade, all that I had to work with is the specification for the original ECU, and bear in mind that in 1991 this corolla and it’s engine was way ahead technically than most of it’s competitors.

So what you find on manufactures websites is basically jargon to the uninformed, and what I have found when requesting information , is that the responses in many instances, implies “What’s the matter with you “ are you stupid”, “ what don’t you understand” ...........

So No , I’m not stupid , quite intelligent actually, just not been following ECU technology for the last 20 years.

What I do know now, is that the inputs on the ECU can be programmed by the installer, to be any of the items that I need, such as TPS, Knock and MAP etc, and really that’s mainly what I was missing.

So I have decided after speaking “On the phone, with a real live person” the UK sales manager,  that the G4 Atom will be suitable ECU for my needs and now I just need to narrow it down to finding a capable local installer that can get my ECU mapped and set up correctly.

Thank you for the replies and a big thank you to the up-loaders of videos on YouTube without who’s help I would still know little or nothing

:D

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Keep in mind that the atom isn't capable of accepting a knock sensor signal, if that is still on your "want" list of sensors, as stated earlier you'll need to go with a storm if you want knock input

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2 hours ago, JMP said:

Keep in mind that the atom isn't capable of accepting a knock sensor signal, if that is still on your "want" list of sensors, as stated earlier you'll need to go with a storm if you want knock input

Surely you're pulling my leg.. That's what this post has all been about.

I know that the storm has on-board map sensor but the engine has it's own which shield be fine,

I was told that the analogue inputs can be assigned to be ANY function including knock control from a knock sensor.

Can someone please give me a definitive answer to this as I am about to buy one , maybe this week.

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As has been stated in this thread many times and in the comparison chart above from link, the Atom does NOT have knock control, if you want it the minimum spec ECU is a storm.

Go download pclink from the main link website, open the atom basemap and you will see there is no "Knock Control" section.  When you're done looking there, open the Storm basemap and have a browse through the knock control section

On an Atom you can theoretically connect a 0-5V output from an external knock amplifier box to one of the spare analog inputs, but you can't do anything with it as there is no knock control section available in the Atom ECU

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1 hour ago, JMP said:

On an Atom you can theoretically connect a 0-5V output from an external knock amplifier box to one of the spare analogue inputs, but you can't do anything with it as there is no knock control section available in the Atom ECU 

OK, so that's where I've gone wrong !!

However, looking at a basemap would mean little or nothing to me and/or would just lead to ore questions, which are of little use really, as ultimately I'm bound by the capabilities of the chosen ECU.

once again, thanks for the input..... be it analogue or digital

l ;-)

41 minutes ago, Ducie54 said:

 

 

41 minutes ago, Ducie54 said:

Incase you still don't understand. ATOM DOES NOT HAVE KNOCK CONTROL. 

No need for the superior tone mate,

Remember, The only stupid question is the one that you forgot to ask

and FYI "In case" are not one word

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It was explained too you on the 16th of March Atom did not have knock control. I figure since you couldn't understand lower case or even the picture I posted maybe larger case was required. Looks like it has worked.

The only stuiped question is the one you keep asking expecting a different answer.

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It doesn’t matter how many times I ask there’s no limit, on this forum or anywhere else in life, and guess what isn’t not up to you

there’s is no reason for you get involved anyway, but you obviously TROLL forums looking to post useless remarks

If you have nothing useful to say then please why bother to respond, you’ve taken it on yourself to add your useless TROLL comment 

No one was tapping on your screen or banging on your door, you just logged in of you own free will to do WHAT ? Nothing

Hopefully others will respond to you with the same downbeat manner, having looked at some of your responses on other threads I can seen that you have “know it all demeanour” well aren’t you the lucky one that knows everything and doesn’t need to ask anyone about anything ever again.

Please feel free to Foxtrot Oscar, I’m sure the forum will be a better place without you.

 Once again, thanks to the forum members that did make useful contribution

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