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Simon86

What is wrong with my tune?

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Hey guys,

I had my car tuned back in December from a local Melbourne Link dealer. The car has been back and forwards as it was running lean and cutting out under boost or lean protection...  

I had the car go back thinking when I would pick it up it would be fixed. In other words i am not comfortable driving it or taking it back. 

It idles funny it doesn't start right it made good power numbers but it's not what it should feel like.

The car is not a daily driven car so it it just sitting plus i had no time to focus on this till now. 

 

I have posted a few logs and the map please let me know what you think.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5r0rbq5d9bilwv0/Log 2018-12-8 8%3B57%3B22 pm.llg?dl=0

 

Any feedback is appreciated

Thank you. 

Original.pclr Log 2018-12-7 6;47;54 pm.llg Log 2018-12-7 7;28;27 pm.llg Log 2018-12-8 9;07;52 pm.llg

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your tuner seems to like having massive steps of advance in the timing and vvt tables...

 

Is it a pig to cruise around moving between 1500-2000rpm?

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Is the turbo too small? It's not holding boost

There are huge swings in Lambda at cruise from very lean to very rich. Quite frankly Lambda is way off its targets almost all of the time. Probably due to the large jumps in the fuel table between load points. At one point in cruise it is as high as 1.2 (17afr) @3000 rpm at steady throttle. It is also very lean at times in boost like .956 (13.8afr) @18psi. Just two examples of a constant theme.

For some reason it has 2 x Lambda Target Tables on one fuel type.

Generally 2* timing comes out for every 20kpa (3psi) load. Have a look at the ignition table - It's just sitting there in big blocks of the same and higher numbers.

The CLL is turned on with 0 gain and it doesn't seem to be making any corrections although the fuelling needs to be pretty close for it to work well anyway.

Put Lambda avg and Lambda Target together in your logging time plot and you'll see what's happening.

The knock control is turned off so we can't see what is going on there.

 

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on a second look this morning, your tuner has also used both the charge temp approximation table and the IAT Fuel Trim Table, without much correlation between the two. Same with using modeled fuel mode and the warm up enrichment table is still in use as you would in a traditional fuel mode setup.   whole map/config likely needs revisiting

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Also looks like base fuel pressure is only 2.5 bar. You have a fuel pressure sensor input but not using it in the modelled equation.

Injector dead time curve has steps in it. 

 

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WOW just wow guys. How can some one call them self a tuner and represent a company and use their platform and not do it correctly.

As i mentioned it was not driven much but i just hope their is not any damage, compression still seems to be where it was. i did have the oil sampled and no bearing materials were found but the oil was changed to fresh oil after the dyno day and i only put less then 100km on that oil 

 

Yes it is a Subaru 2.6 long block Cosworth engine with a FP Red turbo running on e85

 

Thank you for all your comments guys!!! thank you!

Just as a example when i picked it up on the first day i was driving in a 80km zone in 6th gear the AFR's were at 16AFR i had to drive it back in 5th gear so it was closer to 14.7AFR 

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6 hours ago, Rob W said:

Hope you get it sorted ok mate you shouldn't have too much trouble finding someone in Melbourne

Yeh i thought that with the Link Dealer Tuner I have chosen and look what i got for my money... 

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I just had a quick look.  There is some pretty odd stuff in there. 

  1. It looks like it has been tuned for flex fuel but there is only one ignition map and no other corrections for ethanol content.  Usually E85 can take a heap more advance than petrol so what fuel was that ignition table tuned for? 
  2. VVT looks like the offsets are set incorrectly.  The RH inlet cam is showing 10deg advance when it is in the fully home position.  That means it will be getting 10Deg less than what is commanded.
  3. The VVT and ignition tables both have big "holes" in them around the cruise area that is going to make it drive pretty horrible.
  4. Boost control not working great at all.
  5. Fuel control is not great either.  I would say this is due to there only being 1 VE table set up, which doesnt usually cover flex fuel well enough especially when injectors havent been flow tested on both fuels.

I think the saving grace is you are running it on relatively high eth %, which is relatively forgiving.  I wouldnt give it a hard time especially on petrol until it is looked at by someone more competent or interested.  If you want to PM me the tuners name I will pass it on to the right people to consider.

 

 

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On 4/14/2019 at 6:24 PM, Adamw said:

I just had a quick look.  There is some pretty odd stuff in there. 

  1. It looks like it has been tuned for flex fuel but there is only one ignition map and no other corrections for ethanol content.  Usually E85 can take a heap more advance than petrol so what fuel was that ignition table tuned for? 
  2. VVT looks like the offsets are set incorrectly.  The RH inlet cam is showing 10deg advance when it is in the fully home position.  That means it will be getting 10Deg less than what is commanded.
  3. The VVT and ignition tables both have big "holes" in them around the cruise area that is going to make it drive pretty horrible.
  4. Boost control not working great at all.
  5. Fuel control is not great either.  I would say this is due to there only being 1 VE table set up, which doesnt usually cover flex fuel well enough especially when injectors havent been flow tested on both fuels.

I think the saving grace is you are running it on relatively high eth %, which is relatively forgiving.  I wouldnt give it a hard time especially on petrol until it is looked at by someone more competent or interested.  If you want to PM me the tuners name I will pass it on to the right people to consider.

 

 

Hey Guys,

 

I have had  the engine rebuilt as the previous Tune most likely coursed wear and tear on the engine bearings and we got it just in time so to speak...

 

Now I had the car re-tuned by another reputable dealer here in Melbourne where the car was for 3 weeks... Now the logs to me indicate the car is no where near perfect or where it should be...

I have attached a cold start log as you will see it runs so rich at first start and is way out....

Cruising at closed loop lambda is way off also. When doing 80kph in 5th or 6th gear my AFR's go into the 12's - low 13's at basically no throttle input even at cruise control turned on on a flat road. (No boost )

Knock control is not set up correctly and is taking out 3 degrees of timing at 10% lockout at 1,300 RPM- , 5,000RPM ( I asked for this to be turned on everywhere... It sounds like a patch job) 

The fuel pressure is not set up correctly running more pressure then it needs.

 

I specially asked for the tuner to leave the file opened and not password protected as normally he password protects them and I can see why!

I am lost for words!!!

Can you please let me know what else I am missing.... I am not driving the car anymore as I can't afford to do another engine build

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5idqm25vuxp3bpg/cold start.llg?dl=0 cold start 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9dpqh3fwetd9y7f/cruise.llg?dl=0 cruise file

https://www.dropbox.com/s/h9mitdcjhkxxrjp/2-3rd gear pull .llg?dl=0 little 2-3 gear pull and cruise log 

 

 

Thank you,

Simon 

 

Tuner 2 Original .pclr

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From the log this tune actually looks pretty reasonable to me. Cold start is rich between 15 & 25c ECT but its pretty good above this. Once its up to temperature it looks to idle exactly at lambda target which is pretty good for the ~1500cc injectors it looks like you are running. 

The lambda numbers at cruise also look very close to target. What exact time in the log are you concerned about?

It does look like your knock sensor is misconfigured. It shows max noise level as soon as the engine is powered on, and as soon as you get above the knock cutout thresholds, it pulls 3* of timing and keeps it pulled seemingly forever. Be careful "fixing" this as if it has been tuned like this, and you "fix" it, you are essentially adding 3* to the ign table which may put you into knock territory given the boost levels you are seeing. I also notice that RPM high lockout for knock is ~5k so this would only be a concern for ign cells from ~2k - 5k

Not likely a tune issue, and may be related to your fuel pressure question - at high load and/or boost levels it looks like your fuel pump is running out of flow. Your fuel pressure drops from ~350kpa differential to ~320 and at some points even down to ~290. 350kpa as a base fuel pressure it pretty reasonable. What do you think it should be, and why?

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Thanks for the reply CJ... 

The lambda numbers are out. The cruise log is mainly on the freeway 100 km/h zones.... If I am doing about 95 km/h the AFR's are pretty spot on in 6th gear... As soon as i got to 100 km/h the AFR's will drop to mid to low 13's AFR now this is at no point going into boost as the freeway is flat and not hilly so not under big loads.

Another example doing 60 km/h in 5th or 6th gear same sort of problem running on the richer side. These load cells have not been tuned. There is more, these are just examples. Hard to tell at the logs as there is no gearing inputs. Can potentially view with setting up vehicle speed parameter and see my average speeds. (I need to set up gear detection also) 

Every time I am at idle CLL is pulling out 10% plus fuel. ( My idle does not drop from 1,500 RPM to 1,000 RPM once i get to a stop for a while)  I can feel it in 1st and 2nd gear wants to keep pushing the car instead of feeling like it wants to stall) 

 

Base fuel pressure is @ 3.5 bar. Should be 3 Bar as per ID injector data with the 1,700X ( I have two fuel pumps and a surge tank) Plenty of fuel flow?

Differential fuel pressure limit not set right. 

Cold start rpm and AFR fluctuates. 

During Cold start idle control valve % hits max limit.

These are all things that should have been looked at

 

Look at the ignition table nothing has really been changed from the original file of the other tuner....

 

it's just really disappointing that it never is done right 

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Hi Simon,

I didnt see your pclr file when I posted that info. After having a second look with the pclr loaded as well I can see what you mean about the fuel pressure. The pressure itself isnt technically a problem as 3.5bar is a pretty normal pressure level, however the flow rate, deadtimes and short pulse width tables are taken from the 3bar table in the ID1700 data instead of 3.5bar. The fuel flow number is probably the only one having a real impact here. Unfortunately you cant really change either these parameters or the fuel pressure without re-checking the entire fuel tune. Changing the fuel pressure down at the regulator is more likely to be acceptable given you have everything FP sensor controlled, but its still something you want to be careful with as you could cause it to go leaner under load.

I can also now see what you mean about the -12% ish CL correction to your idle fuelling. you could try dropping the fuel table values for both table 1 &  table 2 at these cells & smoothing it into the cells near it. Better yet would be to disable CLL for a while. Go drive around smoothly for a bit (so there is constant load in each cell for a few seconds) then at the end of the run use the mixture map feature to adjust mostly table 2 (current E85 mixture means you are interpolating 90 odd % out of fuel table 2 so its really the only 1 that matters. Turn CLL back on after you've done this.
CLL isnt active at cruise because the RPM high limit is set to 1500rpm. That being said, it still looks to me like at cruise RPM & TPS your lambda values are pretty close to target - between 0.94 & 1.0 which seems ok. If the CLL high rpm threshold was bumped up to around 3k or 3.5k this would probably correct itself. You would probably want to drop the TPS high threshold down to 50 or 70% so you dont run CLL under full throttle. It seems your fuelling is reasonable at full throttle, although there isnt much time spent at WOT in the log to be sure.

For the cold start issues, you can try just upping the max idle valve % up to say 70 and see if this improves things. Your idle is a little below target at this point too so this might fix that.

regarding the feeling of it still having power when off throttle, this wont be lambda related. Only things that cause this (apart from air leaks) are faulty/too small recirc valves, idle screw set too far open, idle valve numbers too high, or ignition advance too high. Easiest one to change is dropping the values in ign1 & 2 table for the row that represents your off-throttle MAP value. The lower you drop this the less power will be generated by the engine to "keep pushing the car". How long does this effect last for? your fuel cut is set to kick in after 0.2seconds which should cut power a lot.

Your cruise log @ 26:54 shows fuel pressure dropping off a fair bit. You'd need to hold it at that level for a few seconds to see if it stablised or kept dropping off. Maybe the lines are too small? maybe low amperage at the pumps if its factory wiring?

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4 hours ago, cj said:

Hi Simon,

I didnt see your pclr file when I posted that info. After having a second look with the pclr loaded as well I can see what you mean about the fuel pressure. The pressure itself isnt technically a problem as 3.5bar is a pretty normal pressure level, however the flow rate, deadtimes and short pulse width tables are taken from the 3bar table in the ID1700 data instead of 3.5bar. The fuel flow number is probably the only one having a real impact here. Unfortunately you cant really change either these parameters or the fuel pressure without re-checking the entire fuel tune. Changing the fuel pressure down at the regulator is more likely to be acceptable given you have everything FP sensor controlled, but its still something you want to be careful with as you could cause it to go leaner under load.

I can also now see what you mean about the -12% ish CL correction to your idle fuelling. you could try dropping the fuel table values for both table 1 &  table 2 at these cells & smoothing it into the cells near it. Better yet would be to disable CLL for a while. Go drive around smoothly for a bit (so there is constant load in each cell for a few seconds) then at the end of the run use the mixture map feature to adjust mostly table 2 (current E85 mixture means you are interpolating 90 odd % out of fuel table 2 so its really the only 1 that matters. Turn CLL back on after you've done this.
CLL isnt active at cruise because the RPM high limit is set to 1500rpm. That being said, it still looks to me like at cruise RPM & TPS your lambda values are pretty close to target - between 0.94 & 1.0 which seems ok. If the CLL high rpm threshold was bumped up to around 3k or 3.5k this would probably correct itself. You would probably want to drop the TPS high threshold down to 50 or 70% so you dont run CLL under full throttle. It seems your fuelling is reasonable at full throttle, although there isnt much time spent at WOT in the log to be sure.

For the cold start issues, you can try just upping the max idle valve % up to say 70 and see if this improves things. Your idle is a little below target at this point too so this might fix that.

regarding the feeling of it still having power when off throttle, this wont be lambda related. Only things that cause this (apart from air leaks) are faulty/too small recirc valves, idle screw set too far open, idle valve numbers too high, or ignition advance too high. Easiest one to change is dropping the values in ign1 & 2 table for the row that represents your off-throttle MAP value. The lower you drop this the less power will be generated by the engine to "keep pushing the car". How long does this effect last for? your fuel cut is set to kick in after 0.2seconds which should cut power a lot.

Your cruise log @ 26:54 shows fuel pressure dropping off a fair bit. You'd need to hold it at that level for a few seconds to see if it stablised or kept dropping off. Maybe the lines are too small? maybe low amperage at the pumps if its factory wiring?

Hi CJ,

Thanks for the reply, it is much appreciated mate! The problem is I spent a little chunk out of my wallet to pay for these services to be provided and a service that I double checked that could be provided beforehand especially after the last experience I had. 

The guy is thinking of reimbursing me something...  I am so fed up that, if he does not come to the party, I will publicly name and shame his business, and name and shame the first business that did a substandard job because people are getting jammed hard here! It's not about the money to me but purely how poor their workmanship is and wasting my time on two separate occasions. And if I can save somebody in the future from what I went through I will! The car was there for 3 weeks!!! I told him to keep the car as long as he needed so it is tuned properly with no issues and I would not need to return because it was a rushed job. I do not feel comfortable taking the car back as I question his ability to tune correctly. I am really losing touch/interest in the car ( only bought it less then a year ago), purely for enjoyment. I am yet to get any enjoyment from it.  I don't feel comfortable driving it due to the tune.

The first tuner cost me over 10 grand  for his poor tuning skills. Since then I have heard of two other engines blowing up due to too much timing. Mind you, these are both 'Link' authorised distributors. If I had not a slight idea,  I would be driving my car and most likely blow it up again. Hence why they like to password protect their files. I asked him to leave the file unlocked and him agreeing to this, made me feel comfortable as he knew I would be looking at the file... These so called tuners should be ashamed of their workmanship... I have some degree of understanding but it is a bit different for me to put it to practice so to speak. Maybe I need to start learning more and doing things myself and knowing it will be done correctly... The fact that really gets my blood boiling is, I asked them multiple times during different phone conversation prior to me bringing the car for the tune... He guaranteed he could do the work, no problem... I even asked him to do everything from scratch, well he has not done that... It was a copy paste kinda job! 

Thank you all for your time to have a look at the logs and confirm what i was fearing.... 

 

I will keep you guys in the loop of what happens next... 

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Simon, seriously mate, take the Horsepower Acadamy courses. You already seem to have a fair idea what you are looking at. HPA will simplify the whole process for you, break it down into a couple of main areas  and give you the skills and confidence to slowly sort out this nightmare properly yourself. Not only will you gain a fuller understanding of fuel and ignition requirements, all your trims and enrichments, boost set up etc,  they also do full video demonstrations on all aspects of tuning on many different platforms and those videos are available to watch over and over.

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