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xxcryptorchidxx

Really high ingnition values

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Hi!

 

I just installed the EvoLink in my Evo 3. Car is basically stock, fuel pump is a bit bigger (Walbro 255). 

 

I took it to dyno for tuning, and tuner said that the ignition values in the table are going crazy high and make no sense. We made sure that the ignition timing is fine. We were able to take the values higher and higher and more kW just kept coming, but then we just ran out of courage to put higher values in there and left it in 274 horsepowers, which is basically stock.

 

Are these normal ignition values in Link? Is this somekind of feature in Link or did we miss a table or something? Any information would be highly appreciated, I also have the whole map if needed.

ignition.PNG

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Cant give you any reason with just a screenshot to go off.  A log and map may be helpful to see if there are any other trims active.  Also, you would want to lock the timing and check it stays constant at low and high RPM.

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A log would be really helpful too. Without it, these are just guesses, but they are things you or your tuner could check for next time you take it for a run.

Check that your trigger1 calibration angle is correct with a timing light. Its currently on 10* while the suggested value for these is 0*. Your engine TDC might be genuinely 10* off the default trigger pattern but it might also be that your entire timing is 10* out because of this. 

You have some fairly aggressive timing being pulled during high IAT and ECT. If you were running hot for any reason while tuning it, you might have been running into these and having some timing  removed automatically. IGN1 table value (say 30) - IAT trim (say 5) - ECT trim (say another 5) = 20* of timing actually being applied to the engine. You can see if *something* is doing this by comparing logs of IGN1 table vs IGN Angle. If they differ, something in your tune is pulling timing. 

 

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What does he mean they were going crazy ?

 

it's the tuners job to enter the values when they are tuning....and ensure the ecu calibration is suitable for the task in hand.

 

Did he not do this ? Or was unable to ?

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Hi,

Unfortunately I have no log right now, but I will definitely take one today while driving. Timing angle was checked and it showed 2° off which shouldn't affect anything. Thank you very much for this quess and a good explanation cj!

 

And Stevieturbo, he meant that the values are very high, and we couldn't figure out why does he have to put on so high values. We surely did calibration for TPS, Wideband etc. But these timing values, we just didn't find the correct trims. We surely tried.

 

I'll provide a log file today.

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Hello again,

 

The logfile was too big to paste in here, so you can download it from Drive: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1TJSfqdNN5LL8gKQ2aoYl9gBdwAzSy-7j

I had no idea how long file you needed, so I recorded about an hour ride. At first there is just driving in a roadway and at the end in a city.

 

StevieTurbo, as I said in the start of the thread, timing was checked. First thing we did when I entered the dyno was to check the timing with a timing lamp. It was fine. Should've we checked something else?

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So looking at that log file a couple things jump out at me

1) your TPS isnt calibrated. It shows 1.3% at idle (and so your idle control never even kicks in), and either you never put your foot right down, or it reads 75% at full throttle. This in itself isnt going to be your problem, but it does point towards some of the basics not being right.

2) your timing does seem rather high - i'm not an evo guy, but 30* at 5000rpm and just over 1bar of boost seems like a big number, and is about 10deg higher than I would have expected (and its also about 10deg higher than a few other evo maps i've dug up). There are no trims being applied at this time, the ECU thinks its actually delivering 30 degrees ignition.

3) your knock control is disabled. This isnt necessarily a problem but with your timing a bit suspect like this, it would have been nice to have enabled in case it is knocking like crazy.

4) as soon as you stop your IAT's go up very quickly, and your IAT trim table kicks in at 30 degC so its possible your dyno runs were getting hit by this, but the circumstance of dyno vs this street driving log are completely different so we cant tell. See point 2 though - I dont think this is your biggest problem.

This car has a 2 part crank pulley right? meaning there is a rubber circle in the middle of it. These can split and let the outer ring with the timing marks slip relative to the actual crank. Apparently this was quite a known issue on earlier 4G63's. If this has happened then your actual crank timing will be off from what the timing marks say. It would be worth cranking the engine by hand until it shows TDC on the crank timing marks, then take off the lower engine cover and the crank pulley, and check that the marks on the cambelt toothed pulley line up with the TDC mark on the block.

I hope your tuner had some kind of knock detection setup while tuning it. Option B is that the timing is accurate and its knocking like crazy at that timing and no one has noticed yet. A turbo engine will typically make more power well past the point of knock (on pump gas), but its really not good for it.

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Thank you very much for your informative answer again cj!

1)TPS has been calibrated for about a hundred times, It stays in 0,0% for some time and then it just pops back to 1,2% - 1,5%. I'm currently waiting for a new sensor, since it seems that this one is not working correctly. With this drive on a public road I did not floor the car since it does really move and I don't want to get a speeding ticket :unsure:.

2)This is exactly what we wondered in the dyno, how is that possible? We also took a look in another evos maps and the values were way lower than mine. You could've still rolled those ignition values up and more kW just kept coming, and the engine ran without knocking. 

3)We had a completely separate knock detection in the dyno and because of that I think it was disabled from ECU, but I think that I'll set it back up again.

4) I have a completely separate cooling system that I need to turn on by hand which I do before entering a track or while driving in a city (since over the years some idiot has destroyed the original wiring regarding cooling). It is a problem with evos that they get crazy hot while standing still or idling. In the dyno the cooling was on and we also had a couple of separate fans blowing cold air to the engine bay and temperature was not the problem.

Crank Pulley is 2 part, and I'm aware of this issue so I replaced it a couple months ago before the old one gives any problems. New one has been driven about 2000 km. The former owner of the car also had the whole engine redone about 100k kilometers ago.

So now we are quite clueless what to do. Should I just drive on happily to the sunset with my high ignition values since the car seems to be working fine?

 

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53 minutes ago, xxcryptorchidxx said:

So now we are quite clueless what to do. Should I just drive on happily to the sunset with my high ignition values since the car seems to be working fine?

If it were mine I would probably only drive it to/from the dyno and maybe to the shops. I wouldn't put any stress on it while it clearly has something wrong with the timing as you dont really know what else might be wrong to cause this, and what damage it's doing in the background. My gut feel is still that somehow your "zero" point is 10 or so degrees off from real TDC. You're showing ~18 deg @ idle, but a car can idle quite happily at 8 with the idle valve open a bit extra, and your injection timing been off by 10deg wont mean much. I'd start with doing the ECU calbration process again, following the setup guide exactly. If that doesnt help, probably rip the alternator belt, pulley, and side timing covers off the engine and make sure that all the timing marks are lined up on the actual crank + cams. The maybe a compression test and/or leakdown test? If you somehow had compression issues you could probably run additional timing without knock as the pressure in the cylinders would be a lot less than it "should be" at the level of boost you are seeing in the manifold.

Are there any other issues with the engine? leaks, using water or oil, weird noises?

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So we will continue with the studies.

Engine is extremely well behaving, it has never leaked any oil or lost it, when you change the oil you could just put it back in the can where it came and the amount would be exactly the same as when you bought the can from store. Same thing with every other liquid. Power steering pump is the only exception it is sweating oil just a bit from the top. But even this, you have to drive for weeks before you notice a wet spot in there. 

Weird noises, not that I have noticed. It purrs like a cat and it runs with a very steady sound. Of course it does differ a bit from the original one since I have no balance shafts in the engine. They were removed when the engine was remade. This helps with the oil pressure which is very good compared to other evos I've ran into. When it comes to evos, they tend to have quite a poor pressure. We have to check the zero point this weekend and also the timing belt. Dyno guy thought that it sounds like it could be wrong by one teeth. 

 

Thank you very much for the ideas and help cj, you are amazing! If you come up with anything else, please let me know. I will study a bit more this weekend and report back.

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