omar.harmoush Posted December 21, 2019 Report Share Posted December 21, 2019 Hello, i have an E34 S52 Turbo that is running on a completely stock OBD1 M50TU harness with all M50TU sensors. Ive put in all of the M/S5x trigger settings in thats on the info section and i still cant get it to start. I replaced the crankshaft and camshaft position sensors with brand new M50B25TU sensors. While cranking it the trigger tab under the runtime value says No under trigger 1 and trigger 2. I'm not really too sure what is wrong im getting no fault codes or trig 1 errors. Any help would be appreciated, thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj Posted December 21, 2019 Report Share Posted December 21, 2019 run a trigger scope capture while cranking it. Lets see what (if any) signal is coming in from the crank & cam sensors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted December 21, 2019 Report Share Posted December 21, 2019 What ECU are you using? The E36 plug-in? The M50 E34 uses a Bosch M3.1 ecu which has a quite different pinout to the M3.3.1 ECU in the E36 M50TUB25. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omar.harmoush Posted December 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2019 I will post a trigger scope when i get to the shop. Yes i am using the E36 plug and play. I didn’t know it had a different pin out? The M50 E34 and E36 use the same stock DME don’t they? It had a Bosch red label 413 in it before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omar.harmoush Posted December 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2019 19 hours ago, cj said: run a trigger scope capture while cranking it. Lets see what (if any) signal is coming in from the crank & cam sensors. Trigger Scope Log 2019-12-21 3;13;54 pm.llg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj Posted December 22, 2019 Report Share Posted December 22, 2019 that scope shows a whole lot of nothing. Were you cranking the car already when you clicked the capture button? Adam is probably right about pinout differences but at least pin 16+17 which are trigger1 & 2 look to be the same pins, so you should see a trigger signal even if there are other issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted December 22, 2019 Report Share Posted December 22, 2019 The pinouts are almost totally different, you have no trigger as the cam and crank are connected to different pins (as well as almost everything else), you are going to have to modify your loom to match the M3.3.1 ECU. Here's the important changes needed from what I see: Move Inj 1 from pin 3 to pin 33. Move inj 2 from pin 5 to pin 32. Move Inj 3 from pin 4 to pin 31. Move Inj 4 from pin 33 to pin 5. Move Inj 5 from pin 4 to pin 31. Move Inj 6 from pin 31 to pin 3. Move Ign 1 from pin 25 to pin 50. Move Ign 2 from pin 23 to pin 51. Move Ign 3 from pin 24 to pin 52. Move Ign 4 from pin 50 to pin 23. Move Ign 5 from pin 52 to pin 25. Move Ign 6 from pin 51 to pin 24. Move TP signal from pin 25 to pin 73 Move crank signal from pin 68 to pin 16. Move the crank ground from pin 67 to pin 43. Move the cam signal from pin 16 to pin 17. Cam ground should be ok as is I think (cant see where that connects in my schematic)? Move Oxy sensor heater from pin 37 to pin 38. Move Oxy sensor gnd from pin 71 to pin 40. Move Oxy sensor signal from pin 70 to pin 13. Move tacho from pin 74 to pin 47. If there is a wire in pin 64, move it to 57 (auto trans) Move AC request from pin 86 to pin 64. Move VSS from pin 73 to pin 42. If there is a wire in pin 65, move it to 81 (labelled neutral switch may only be auto trans). If you have knock sensors, make sure they are connected to pins 69 & 70 ( i dont think the M3.1 had any knock sensors connected)? Vanos (aux3) is on pin 7 if you need it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omar.harmoush Posted December 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Adamw said: The pinouts are almost totally different, you have no trigger as the cam and crank are connected to different pins (as well as almost everything else), you are going to have to modify your loom to match the M3.3.1 ECU. Here's the important changes needed from what I see: Move Inj 1 from pin 3 to pin 33. Move inj 2 from pin 5 to pin 32. Move Inj 3 from pin 4 to pin 31. Move Inj 4 from pin 33 to pin 5. Move Inj 5 from pin 4 to pin 31. Move Inj 6 from pin 31 to pin 3. Move Ign 1 from pin 25 to pin 50. Move Ign 2 from pin 23 to pin 51. Move Ign 3 from pin 24 to pin 52. Move Ign 4 from pin 50 to pin 23. Move Ign 5 from pin 52 to pin 25. Move Ign 6 from pin 51 to pin 24. Move TP signal from pin 25 to pin 73 Move crank signal from pin 68 to pin 16. Move the crank ground from pin 67 to pin 43. Move the cam signal from pin 16 to pin 17. Cam ground should be ok as is I think (cant see where that connects in my schematic)? Move Oxy sensor heater from pin 37 to pin 38. Move Oxy sensor gnd from pin 71 to pin 40. Move Oxy sensor signal from pin 70 to pin 13. Move tacho from pin 74 to pin 47. If there is a wire in pin 64, move it to 57 (auto trans) Move AC request from pin 86 to pin 64. Move VSS from pin 73 to pin 42. If there is a wire in pin 65, move it to 81 (labelled neutral switch may only be auto trans). If you have knock sensors, make sure they are connected to pins 69 & 70 ( i dont think the M3.1 had any knock sensors connected)? Vanos (aux3) is on pin 7 if you need it. Are you sure that the E34 M50TU is the M3.1 and not the M3.3.1? I thought that the M3.1 was the non vanos DME and the M3.3.1 is for the M50TU. Also my injectors, tacho, ignition, tps, everything is working except for crank and cam sensors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted December 22, 2019 Report Share Posted December 22, 2019 I am not 100% sure, my info says all E34 M50 variants had the M3.1 and there is no specific mention of a M50TU so that may be wrong. The fact you have no crank signal however suggests not. The injecors and coils will work, but they will be in the wrong order. Why dont you beep out your crank sensor to confirm what pin it is on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omar.harmoush Posted December 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2019 10 hours ago, Adamw said: I am not 100% sure, my info says all E34 M50 variants had the M3.1 and there is no specific mention of a M50TU so that may be wrong. The fact you have no crank signal however suggests not. The injecors and coils will work, but they will be in the wrong order. Why dont you beep out your crank sensor to confirm what pin it is on... I will take a look at it tomorrow to see what pins my crank sensor is on. I’m 95% sure that mine is the M3.3.1 and that i shouldn’t have to repin anything because one of my friends is running a link in his turbo m52 e34 and he didn’t have to repin anything. His car was also an M50TU car from factory so that’s what makes me think i shouldn’t need to. I will check it tomorrow tho to make sure, if that’s not my issue then idk what else to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omar.harmoush Posted December 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2019 On 12/22/2019 at 2:33 AM, Adamw said: I am not 100% sure, my info says all E34 M50 variants had the M3.1 and there is no specific mention of a M50TU so that may be wrong. The fact you have no crank signal however suggests not. The injecors and coils will work, but they will be in the wrong order. Why dont you beep out your crank sensor to confirm what pin it is on... Yeah my pins are in the correct place. So what do you think the issue with it not receiving any trigger signal could be? I’ve spent the past week or so trying to get this car started and i can’t figure out what the issue is. I have my triggers set up correctly i believe i’ll post my tune file so that you can take a look at it in case i missed something. It started up perfectly fine when it was on the MS3 Pro PnP with the M50tu base map. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil brown Posted December 24, 2019 Report Share Posted December 24, 2019 Is it a new link ecu ? has the unlock code bern entered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omar.harmoush Posted December 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2019 8 minutes ago, neil brown said: Is it a new link ecu ? has the unlock code bern entered Yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted December 25, 2019 Report Share Posted December 25, 2019 If the triggerscope above was performed correctly (captured while engine was turning), then there are really only 3 possible explannations; you have no signal making it to the ECU pins 16/17, the sensor grounds arent connected, or the sensors arent actually M50tu (Reluctor crank, hall cam). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omar.harmoush Posted December 25, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 25, 2019 2 hours ago, Adamw said: If the triggerscope above was performed correctly (captured while engine was turning), then there are really only 3 possible explannations; you have no signal making it to the ECU pins 16/17, the sensor grounds arent connected, or the sensors arent actually M50tu (Reluctor crank, hall cam). Yes i did it while cranking. The sensor gets ground from the harness right? My harness isnt modified or cut in any way. The sensors are for sure M50tu i just replaced them both with brand new OE sensors for an M50tu. I will recheck my engine grounds tomorrow. Is there somewhere i could find the wire colors for each pin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fotis Posted December 26, 2019 Report Share Posted December 26, 2019 Get a multimeter and check for continuity from the ecu connector to the crank and cam sensor who knows if there is a damaged wire. The cam-crank grounds are from ecu and not to the chassis. Make sure the grounds are in the ground pin and not in any of the trig1 or trig2 signal pin. Cam and crank grounds most of the time share common ground so if you don't have the crank - cam connector pinout you can find it by checking both connectors for same ground(not 100%). How many pins does cam and crank sensor connector have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omar.harmoush Posted December 26, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2019 3 hours ago, Fotis said: Get a multimeter and check for continuity from the ecu connector to the crank and cam sensor who knows if there is a damaged wire. The cam-crank grounds are from ecu and not to the chassis. Make sure the grounds are in the ground pin and not in any of the trig1 or trig2 signal pin. Cam and crank grounds most of the time share common ground so if you don't have the crank - cam connector pinout you can find it by checking both connectors for same ground(not 100%). How many pins does cam and crank sensor connector have? They each have 3 pins. I will check that tomorrow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omar.harmoush Posted December 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 27, 2019 Okay, I’ve tested the voltage at the plug and my Link G4+ isn’t providing any power to the crank sensor at all. The stock DME gives it about 5 volts. Idk if my ecu is defective or something?? The pins are for sure in the correct spots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fotis Posted December 28, 2019 Report Share Posted December 28, 2019 If am not mistaken only way you can check the voltage is with an osciloscope plus the engine has to be running. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omar.harmoush Posted December 28, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2019 23 minutes ago, Fotis said: If am not mistaken only way you can check the voltage is with an osciloscope plus the engine has to be running. Im checking the voltage at the plug from the harness. I plugged in the factory dme with the stock injectors and it started right up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted December 28, 2019 Report Share Posted December 28, 2019 3 hours ago, omar.harmoush said: Okay, I’ve tested the voltage at the plug and my Link G4+ isn’t providing any power to the crank sensor at all. The stock DME gives it about 5 volts. Idk if my ecu is defective or something?? The pins are for sure in the correct spots. The M50TU crank sensor is a VR (reluctor) it is not powered, it generates its own voltage. The OEM ecu may have a very weak pull-up which may give you the false 5V reading but I dont expect to see any voltage at the crank sensor plug with the Link ECU. The cam sensor is a hall effect, so if you check at this connector you should have 12V on one pin, 5 V on one and gnd on the 3rd pin.. What you should be testing is that there is continuity from your crank sensor to pin 16 and pin 43. And the cam sensor should have continuity to pin 17 and ground. 3 hours ago, omar.harmoush said: Idk if my ecu is defective or something?? All ECU's are tested for over 24hrs at very high and very low temperatures with all input and outputs monitored before shipping, it would be unlikely that it died on the way to you. The triggerscope hardware is quite independent from the rest of the trigger circuit in the ECU so the fact that two separate systems (the triggerscope and the ECU trigger runtimes) say there is no trigger signal suggests there really is no trigger signal... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omar.harmoush Posted December 28, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2019 2 hours ago, Adamw said: The M50TU crank sensor is a VR (reluctor) it is not powered, it generates its own voltage. The OEM ecu may have a very weak pull-up which may give you the false 5V reading but I dont expect to see any voltage at the crank sensor plug with the Link ECU. The cam sensor is a hall effect, so if you check at this connector you should have 12V on one pin, 5 V on one and gnd on the 3rd pin.. What you should be testing is that there is continuity from your crank sensor to pin 16 and pin 43. And the cam sensor should have continuity to pin 17 and ground. All ECU's are tested for over 24hrs at very high and very low temperatures with all input and outputs monitored before shipping, it would be unlikely that it died on the way to you. The triggerscope hardware is quite independent from the rest of the trigger circuit in the ECU so the fact that two separate systems (the triggerscope and the ECU trigger runtimes) say there is no trigger signal suggests there really is no trigger signal... Well the fact that it started with the oem ecu should mean that there is continuity in the circuit right? Everything on the car is obviously working if its able to start with the factory dme? Is there something wrong with my tune file or something? Ill attach it so you could take a look at it. S52 E34 Turbo.pclr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted December 28, 2019 Report Share Posted December 28, 2019 7 minutes ago, omar.harmoush said: Well the fact that it started with the oem ecu should mean that there is continuity in the circuit right? That only tells you the factory ECU is getting a signal on whatever pins it was wired for, it doesnot confirm that there is a signal on the correct pins 16/17/43 that the Link E36 ecu is expecting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omar.harmoush Posted December 28, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2019 10 minutes ago, Adamw said: That only tells you the factory ECU is getting a signal on whatever pins it was wired for, it doesnot confirm that there is a signal on the correct pins 16/17/43 that the Link E36 ecu is expecting. Actually, do you know if the pinout between automatic and manual cars is the same? My car was auto before i put the S52 and manual transmission in so idk if that could be the reason? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted December 28, 2019 Report Share Posted December 28, 2019 I only have good solid info for the E36 with M50TUB25, in that car at least the manual/auto pinout is the same and the Link ECU works in either. As mentioned in my earlier post all wiring diagrams I can find for a E34 525 show the M3.1 pinout so I dont know what your car has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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