PeterHay205 Posted December 31, 2020 Report Share Posted December 31, 2020 Hi all – we are having trouble getting our newly built 3s-gte running (for a caged ST-185 tarmac car). There is obviously something we have missed, and I’d appreciate any suggestions as to what we should try next. We are running a Link Storm G4+ wired into the stock Toyota loom (ie not using a plug-in). The engine is a relatively standard gen2 3S-GTE rebuilt with: - 264 degree brian crower cams with shim under bucket - Forged pistons - 720 cc injectors - Sard fuel pressure regulator - Generic 3Bar MAP sensor - Bosch Intake Air Temp sensor mounted just inside the manifold (in place of the old cold start injector) - Still using the stock Toyota distributor for timing. The NE signal (24 tooth cam driven CAS) is connected to Trigger 1, and G1 (1 tooth cam driven signal) is connected to Trigger 2. - Using 4 Yaris coilpacks for direct spark As a base, we have unplugged the Storm from our running ST205 (has been running fine for about the last 3 years) and used it's tune as our starting point. The ST205 is basically stock (except running 17psi boost) and was tuned by one of the local tuners. The main differences in the setups between the two engines are: - ST205 Cams aren’t as big - ST205 stock injectors are 540cc - ST205 ignition system uses distributor and single coilpack We have done a TPS calibration, MAP calibration, and a trigger scope (see attached). I have looked at the trigger arming thresholds (copies from the ST205) and they seem ok (I think?). When we crank it over, we get RPM readings of 200 – 250 rpm in PCLink. I have only ever seen 1 Trigger 1 error count over the past few days, and both triggers show ‘active’ whilst cranking. So I’m assuming it is getting a correct trigger. We have shone a timing light at it during cranking and it is dead on 10 degrees BTDC. We have done an ignition test to verify all the 4 coilpacks are firing individually when put into test mode. The is a smell of fuel in the exhaust, so we know that we have fuel. A couple of days ago, the wires to the distributor were in the process of breaking, and we were getting combustion happening in the dump pipe whilst cranking (as the triggers were all over the place), however we have fixed the distributor wiring, and the attached triggerscope is from today. The ST205 map we started with is using ‘Traditional Mode’ for fuelling, with a ‘Master Fuel’ value of 9msec. To account for our larger injectors I have tried 8,7,6,5,4,and 3 msec with no real hint of it starting. Our intent is to get it started and idling, then finish the rest of the build, before taking it to our local tuner for a tune. I have attached the pclr file for reference. Any help would be appreciated, as we have hit the limit of our expertise. 53-Shelley temp b4 doing set base timing.pclr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted December 31, 2020 Report Share Posted December 31, 2020 Try adding 360 deg to your trigger offset, with a distributor it will still run with it being 360out, but with direct spark it wont. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INSW20 Posted December 31, 2020 Report Share Posted December 31, 2020 Yep, that's what it was for me. My trigger offset was -3, and car would only backfire. Changed to 357 and it more or less started right up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHay205 Posted December 31, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2020 Thanks guys - that sounds like it. I'll have to wait until after New Years to try it out - the neighbours might not appreciate a 3s-gte with only a dump pipe roaring into life at midnight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHay205 Posted December 31, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2020 14 hours ago, Adamw said: Try adding 360 deg to your trigger offset, with a distributor it will still run with it being 360out, but with direct spark it wont. Just thinking this through, that means that our ST205 has been running all this time with the timing 360 out, but because of the distributor it will still fire. So basically when the ECU thinks it is firing #1, it actually is firing #4, #3 is firing #2, #4 is firing #1 and #2 is firing #3. I assume that also means that it will be firing the 'wrong' injector as well, but because they are port injectors, there is enough mixture in the manifold to make it all work still? I'm wondering if we should also fix the timing on the ST205 and send it back to the tuners to have the mixture checked (once we have the current injectors firing). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted January 1, 2021 Report Share Posted January 1, 2021 With a distributor and the offset 360deg out, just the injector timing would have been wrong. Unlikely to make any difference at all, maybe a small change in idle mixture and you may find it will idle a bit smoother with the injector timing correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHay205 Posted January 2, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2021 Many thanks guys - added 360 to base timing and it fired up straight away!! Brilliant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellisd1984 Posted January 2, 2021 Report Share Posted January 2, 2021 Can I ask was the base timing setting for the 205 taken from the base map and if so could it be possible the base map is out 360? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHay205 Posted January 2, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2021 Possibly. When I wired up our 205 originally, I loaded up the Link base map, and it started straight away so I didn't bother checking anything else. We then took it to the tuner, they worked their magic, and we have been running it in events ever since then. I've just loaded up the Link base map, and it shows an Offset of 1 degree. When I got our 205 back from the tuner, it had an offset of -4 degrees (not much different). Given that I had to add 360 degrees to get our new engine to run (with direct spark instead of a distributor), it looks like maybe the base map is out by 360 degrees. I am definitely no expert though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellisd1984 Posted January 2, 2021 Report Share Posted January 2, 2021 The reason I ask is I've been chasing inconsistencies around idle for months now and the injectors firing in the wrong order might go some way to explainig this. I'd obviously checked the injectors were wired in the correct order but that wouldnt help if the ecu was firing them from the wrong starting point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted January 3, 2021 Report Share Posted January 3, 2021 On 1/2/2021 at 7:44 PM, ellisd1984 said: The reason I ask is I've been chasing inconsistencies around idle for months now and the injectors firing in the wrong order might go some way to explainig this. I'd obviously checked the injectors were wired in the correct order but that wouldnt help if the ecu was firing them from the wrong starting point. Unlikely make any noticable difference to the way it runs. But the easiest way to confirm is to temporarily set your ignition mode to direct spark, then crank it over with a timing light on #1 plug lead - or pull the #1 plug out and ground it where you can see it. If offset is correct you will have a spark, if offset is wrong you will have no spark on #1 lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellisd1984 Posted February 9, 2021 Report Share Posted February 9, 2021 I know this is an old thread but I've done the above and can confirm the st205 base map is out by 360 deg. Would the timing being set wrong show that when I've got knock on a particular cylinder its showing the wrong cylinder? Reason I ask is the gain values I've got don't really make sense for where I know the sensor is located (in the middle of cylinder 3 yet I've got the gain on cylinder set the lowest as if thats the one closest to the sensor) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted February 9, 2021 Report Share Posted February 9, 2021 If it is distributor then you only only have one channel knock control. If you have converted to direct spark for individual cylinder knock control then it wouldnt run if the timing was out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellisd1984 Posted February 9, 2021 Report Share Posted February 9, 2021 Sorry Adam, I'm actual on a G4X I'd just tacked on to this post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted February 9, 2021 Report Share Posted February 9, 2021 Knock level gain doesnt necessarily indicate there is a problem with the firing order/windowing/offset. It could also be explained with mechanical reasons such as a weaker path of conductance to that cyl or less bore clearance etc. I suggest you do the direct spark test I advised a couple of posts up to confirm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellisd1984 Posted February 9, 2021 Report Share Posted February 9, 2021 Yeah I did the spark test and the base map was out by 360 deg so I've corrected it now (set base timing to 350). I was just wondering if it being out by 360 deg would mean cylinders 2 & 3 would be reveresed? I'm presumuing since the G4x can do individual knock control without direct spark it looks at the injector order to decide which cylinder is firing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted February 9, 2021 Report Share Posted February 9, 2021 17 minutes ago, ellisd1984 said: I'm presumuing since the G4x can do individual knock control without direct spark it looks at the injector order to decide which cylinder is firing. It uses the firing order table that is in the configuration menu. So if the offset was off by 360 and you are using individual cyl knock detection, all knock cylinder labels would be wrong. Knock control would still work correctly and the correct cylinder will still be retarded, but the knock levels labels will not match the actual cylinder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaughan Posted February 9, 2021 Report Share Posted February 9, 2021 I've changed the sample map offsets (ST185 and ST205) by 360deg, as Adam says the offset being wrong will affect which cylinder your ind ign trims (and Knock ign trims) will be applied to on a G4X but will also affect which cylinder it thinks is knocking in the same way and so ign timing will be removed from the cylinder that is knocking but the cylinder number might be reported wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellisd1984 Posted February 9, 2021 Report Share Posted February 9, 2021 Thanks for confirming this, I realise that it wouldn't effect how the cylinders react to knock as it would still be reducing timing on the same cylinder as it was detecting the knock. It just makes sense now how my cylinder gain values seemed reversed to what I expected (as cyl 3 which is closest to the knock sensor so had the lowest gain was showing up as cyl2). Thanks again Vaughan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
essb00 Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 If you use G1 for Trigger 2 instead of G2, then you will need to have the 360° offset... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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