trigger question m3 e30

[cruz177]

I am mounting a link g4x on a bmw m3 e30 s14

I have a question about how to connect the triggers

Both the crankshaft and camshaft sensors are inductive

Would it be correct to wire the YW voltage pin to an aux output and the negative to each corresponding trigg input?

Thanks

[koracing]

Which model ecu are you wiring in? 

Typically you will wire the positive of a inductor/reluctor 2 wire sensor to the signal input and the negative to a ground to a signal ground or sensor ground. 

Also it may be more approriate to ask questions about G4X ecu wiring in the G4X section, not the G4+ section, though your question would apply in either ecu case.

[Adamw]

I've got the pinout below for the cam sensor, you will probably find the crank is the same. 

"Out" connects to the ecu trigger 1/2 pin.

"Gnd" connects to the ground wire.

"S" connects to the shield.

 

[Sterling]

There are no crank or cam sensors on an e30 m3, that sensor Adam posted is from the flywheel sensor which the motronic used on an e30 m3. There is a magnetic tab on the flywheel that motronic uses. 
 

to install g4+ (like I have a few others have too), you’ll need a crank trigger wheel and a new crank sensor and most common is to use an s38 cam trigger setup on the intake cam of the s14. 
Im using a crank trigger kit from VAC Motorsports and an s38 cam sensor setup. They are both magnetic even though they each have 3 wires. The third wire is a shielded ground. 
 

There are a number of threads on s14.net regarding cam and crank trigger adaptations. Almost everyone, regardless of which standalone ecu they are using, are using a version of the same setup. 

You can see my cam trigger on the intake cam in this pic, the crank sensor is down below the water pump but both wires are passing under the throttle bodies together 

[cruz177]

7 hours ago, Sterling said:

No hay sensores de cigüeñal o de leva en un e30 m3, ese sensor que Adam publicó es del sensor del volante que el motronic usó en un e30 m3. Hay una pestaña magnética en el volante que utiliza motronic. 
 

para instalar g4 + (como tengo algunos otros también), necesitará una rueda de gatillo de manivela y un nuevo sensor de manivela y lo más común es usar una configuración de gatillo de leva s38 en la leva de admisión del s14. 
Estoy usando un kit de gatillo de manivela de VAC Motorsports y una configuración de sensor de leva s38. Ambos son magnéticos aunque cada uno tiene 3 cables. El tercer cable es una tierra blindada. 
 

Hay una serie de hilos en s14.net con respecto a las adaptaciones del gatillo de la leva y la manivela. Casi todo el mundo, independientemente de la centralita independiente que esté utilizando, utiliza una versión de la misma configuración. 

Puede ver el gatillo de mi leva en la leva de admisión en esta imagen, el sensor de la manivela está debajo de la bomba de agua pero ambos cables pasan juntos debajo de los cuerpos del acelerador 

Thanks for the advice.

Link has a 116 tooth s14 m3 firing pattern in his database so I understand it should be fine with the original sensor for the crankshaft

It also has a second sensor on the flywheel (one tooth) that the Motronic 1.0 uses to send the TDC and that it could be using for camshaft position.

I think this should be working.

Has anyone tried it?

[Adamw]

3 minutes ago, cruz177 said:

Link has a 116 tooth s14 m3 firing pattern in his database so I understand it should be fine with the original sensor for the crankshaft

It also has a second sensor on the flywheel (one tooth) that the Motronic 1.0 uses to send the TDC and that it could be using for camshaft position.

I think this should be working.

Yes, it works fine, but is only capable of wasted spark or distributor ignition.  If you want sequential and direct spark you will have to fit aftermarket triggers as Sterling suggested above.  

[cruz177]

40 minutes ago, Adamw said:

Yes, it works fine, but is only capable of wasted spark or distributor ignition.  If you want sequential and direct spark you will have to fit aftermarket triggers as Sterling suggested above.  

i'm going to be riding single direct spark ngk r8 coils

having a tdc sensor that marks the point where the camshaft is (on the flywheel) and a 116 teeth crankshaft sensor I don't really understand why these sensors cannot continue to be used.

What problem am I going to have?

Thank you

[Adamw]

The flywheel turns twice for 1 revolution of the cam.  So when the flywheel "TDC" tooth passes the sensor there is no way for the ECU to know whether it is TDC on the compression stroke or TDC on the exhaust stroke.

For direct spark and/or sequential injection you need to know which stroke your are on which typically means a cam sensor. 

The other option would be to change to a more conventional missing tooth crank wheel and use "MAP sync" instead of having to add a cam sensor as well (G4X can use a MAP sensor connected to 1 intake runner to detect the intake stroke). 

 

[cruz177]

1 hour ago, Adamw said:

El volante gira dos veces por 1 revolución de la leva. Por lo tanto, cuando el diente "TDC" del volante pasa el sensor, no hay forma de que la ECU sepa si es TDC en la carrera de compresión o TDC en la carrera de escape.

Para chispa directa y / o inyección secuencial, necesita saber en qué carrera se encuentra, lo que generalmente significa un sensor de leva. 

La otra opción sería cambiar a una rueda de manivela de diente faltante más convencional y usar "MAP sync" en lugar de tener que agregar un sensor de leva también (G4X puede usar un sensor MAP conectado a 1 corredor de admisión para detectar la carrera de admisión). 

 

thank you very much, the MAP sync could be very interesting to save work since you would only have to manufacture the crankshaft wheel

I will be using alpha-n, will this setup work correctly? Is it as reliable as using a CMP sensor?

How should I put the MAP in this configuration? I plan to use a m3 e46 tps and use a combined bosch motorsport fuel sensor for safety

[Sterling]

Adam - could the flyhweel sensor be used along with the cam sensor I pictured above to run sequential injection?

Cruz177 - what are you motor specs?

[cruz177]

1 hour ago, Sterling said:

Adam - could the flyhweel sensor be used along with the cam sensor I pictured above to run sequential injection?

Cruz177 - what are you motor specs?

The engine is an s14 without many modifications

It has more agressive camshafts, alpha-n intake and full exhaust

I will be installing audi r8 coils and e30 evo2 injectors

Do you have any recommendations for me?

[Sterling]

I would recommend the Bosch Motorsport injectors from this page ending in number 116:

https://www.bosch-motorsport.com/content/downloads/Raceparts/Resources/pdf/Data Sheet_67797771_Injection_Valve_EV_14.pdf

They are high impedance and have significantly better resolution for tuning than the old school evo injectors.  I'm running the VAG coils too which you can see in my pic above.  I suggest increasing fuel pressure as well as the factory 3.0bar is a little low for a performance motor. 

As a race only motor I'm running 65psi fuel pressure and it worked well with those injectors.  My motor has 12.5:1 compression and motorsport cams so it's a little different than the average street setup.

[Adamw]

9 hours ago, Sterling said:

Adam - could the flyhweel sensor be used along with the cam sensor I pictured above to run sequential injection?

In thoery it would maybe be possible to use the two stock flywheel sensors for crank pos and a 3rd sensor on the cam wired to a DI for phase detection but it would need some fairly major trigger coding to make it work.  I would also be a little concerned that the fixed arming threshold on the DI inputs would be too high for reliable sync at cranking speeds if it were a VR sensor.  

[cruz177]

I'm having trouble starting the car

I put a hall sensor on the camshaft with a wheel with a tooth that I have manufactured and I am trying to use the 116 tooth flywheel sensor oem from m3

the problem is that it seems that the signal is out of phase, I have tried to move and play the sensor so that it is right in the drop of the tooth in the middle and configure it as Falling but I get a lot of synchronization errors and it seems that it is deviating me

Is there any way to fix this?

Thank you!

[Adamw]

No, as I already stated above, the stock 116 tooth flywheel trigger can only work with the second "TDC" sensor (also on the flywheel).  It cannot work with a seperate cam sensor.  There is too much backlash between the cam and the crank for a cam sensor to be used to identify TDC when there are 116 teeth on the crank.  

If the crank has no missing teeth then about 36teeth is the max you can have with seperate cam sensor (even that only allows 5 deg of cam "slop" before it would fail).  This is why higher tooth count wheels generally have missing teeth for the TDC identification instead of relying on the cam.

[cruz177]

On 5/18/2021 at 11:18 PM, Adamw said:

No, como ya dije anteriormente, el gatillo del volante original de 116 dientes solo puede funcionar con el segundo sensor "TDC" (también en el volante). No puede funcionar con un sensor de leva independiente. Hay demasiado juego entre la leva y la manivela para que se use un sensor de leva para identificar el PMS cuando hay 116 dientes en la manivela.  

Si a la manivela no le faltan dientes, entonces alrededor de 36 dientes es el máximo que puede tener con un sensor de leva separado (incluso eso solo permite 5 grados de "inclinación" de la leva antes de que falle). Esta es la razón por la que las ruedas de mayor número de dientes generalmente tienen dientes faltantes para la identificación del TDC en el lugar de dependencia de la leva.

 

I am finally using a 24-1 wheel that I have made on the underdrive pulley.

I have mounted a hall sensor and I have placed the missing tooth 6 teeth before the sensor (from what I have seen 90º is recommended before or after the TDC). Am I correct?

For the camshaft I have made a pulley with a tooth and another hall sensor, in this case I think I have the tooth very close to the missing tooth, it must be approximately 90º (6 teeth) with respect to the missing tooth of the crankshaft pulley, or as I have it, will it work?

I also wanted to ask if changing the hall sensor from falling to rising is going to influence anything, I have read that this is only really a problem in VR sensors, but according to my oscilloscope trigger, would this bring any advantage? ? (They are currently rising)

Thanks

[Adamw]

Yeah looks good.  I would use falling edge on trig 1 and rising on trig 2 in this case.  With most hall sensors the fall time is faster so the falling edge is more accurate, since all timing comes from trig 1 it is preferable to have that as falling.  Cam edge doesnt really matter, but if in trigger 1 settings you are using sync tooth 1 the cam rising edge is preferable in this case since its further away from sync tooth 1.  

Trigger offset will likely be somewhere around -90 or +270

 

 

[cruz177]

13 hours ago, Adamw said:

Yeah looks good.  I would use falling edge on trig 1 and rising on trig 2 in this case.  With most hall sensors to fall time is faster so the falling edge is more accurate, since all timing comes from trig 1 it is preferable to have that as falling.  Cam edge doesnt really matter, but if in trigger 1 settings you are using sync tooth 1 the cam rising edge is preferable in this case since its further away from sync tooth 1.  

Trigger offset will likely be somewhere around -90 or +270

 

 

286º to be exact

Thank you very much the engine already starts and at the moment it seems stable with no trigger failure, let's see how it works