3SGE Beams crank trigger

[darylwalford]

Hi Everyone, I have installed an Extreme X onto a 3SGE Beams engine which is fitted into a Clubman (Lotus 7 Replica)

Engine and ECU was fitted a while ago and it starts and runs, been on a dyno 3 times with 2 different tuners and neither can get it to run properly or tune it to make the power it should be making.

My question is about the crank trigger, the setup say "3SGE VVT" but the trigger is actually from a different engine, to get the engine to fit we had to fit a custom sump which also necessitated fitting an oil pump from a 5SFE Camry engine and the 5SFE crank position sensor, offset is calibrated to -53deg which starts the engine.

So if the setup says "3SGE VVT" but we are actually using a 5SFE crank pos sensor could that cause the engine to lack power and run rough?

Thanks in advance

Daryl  

[Adamw]

A google image search of the term "5SFE crank trigger" shows they have a 36-2 wheel which is the same as a Beams.  

Can you do a triggerscope at idle and attach here so we can confirm it is wired correctly etc.  

It wouldnt hurt to attach a copy of the tune and a log of it running too as we might spot something.  

[darylwalford]

Hi Adam, Thanks for the reply. I'll try and do what you asked tomorrow.

 

[darylwalford]

Hi Adam, Files as requested, thanks.

clubman trigger scope.llgx clubman log1.llgx clubman tune.pclx

[Adamw]

Ok, trigger wise everything looks good.  

There are a few things that jump out in the tune as not ideal, but none that I would expect to make a big difference to the peak power achieved.  More so stuff that will cause day to day variation of lambda.

Some comments in no particular order:

1. Fuel equation load source is set to MAP, but there is no MAP sensor fitted.  It should be set to BAP in this case so changes in baro are taken care of.
2. Injector Short Pulse Width adder has some pretty large values considering it has small injectors.  At 0.75ms it is removing 0.24ms which is like 30% of the fuel.  Doesnt seem right.  This should be zeroed out unless someone has especially characterised these injectors.
3. IAT fuel trim is still active, this would normally be turned off when using modelled mode as it is already compensated for by the charge temp approximation.
4. Accel cold correction table is all zeros so accel enrichment wont work at all.  This will likely cause lean patches and flatspots whenever you move the throttle.  
5. Charge temp approximation table has MGP on the load axis but since there is no MAP sensor this wont work.  This should really use TP in this case.
6. Injector timing looks very odd, not saying it is wrong, but usually 350-400 is more what I expect to see for an engine with injectors close to the intake valves.
7. Ignition timing looks quite soft, especally at low loads.  I cant say this with confidence since I havent tuned a beams 3S, but on the Gen 2 & 3 3S engines I would usually have 40-45deg in there at cruise and prob 35 up to half throttle or so.  Even the WOT row looks a bit softer than I expect.  I dont know your fuel or compression etc so dont take this as gospel but my feeling is there is a lot of mid range torque and drivability missing due to this.  Possibly a little at WOT.
8. Knock control set-up doesnt look correct at all, with a gain of 30, and low thresholds.  Higher thresholds at 2000RPM than 4000 seems odd.   So this could potentially be pulling timing out often - no sign in the short log but it is definately a long way off expected settings so I would probably disable it for now.  Suspect the wiring is no good or the sensor is dead. 
9. Intake VVT looks to be working ok in the log but throttle wasnt opened ennough to confirm Exhaust VVt is working.  Again I dont have any hands on experience with the beams, but the exhaust VVT targets look a bit odd with no retard until 50% throttle.  With some engines the exhaust makes bugger all difference so this could be the case here, but it just seems a bit odd is all.
10. Idle ignition control is not working because the MAP lockout is set to 50kpa but you dont have a MAP sensor.  So setting this up correctly will make it nicer to drive.  For ITB's I would also usually set the Ignition idle target much lower and open throttles more so it has enough air to idle by itself during cold start.  
11. Your flywheel supply voltage is very low in the log (should normally be close to batt voltage) - this is internal in the Xtreme so Im not sure what would cause that or if it is a problem, but I will ask one of the engineers tomorrow if it is anything to be worried about.  
12. Firmware is very old.  No show stopper bugs that I remember, but there have been a lot of improvements and bug fixes since 6.16 so definately update before tuning further.   

[darylwalford]

Thanks for the reply.

I will have a look at everything and discuss the issues you raise with the tuner.

On the subject of knock control the tuner also said that it wasn't working, I only have the A loom and when I looked for reason why the knock wasn't working I saw that I needed the B loom which has a dedicated knock wire so do I need the B loom to make knock work? 

Never heard of "flywheel supply voltage"??

 

Thanks again

[Adamw]

You dont nesecarily need a B loom, but knock is on the B plug.  So you would need the B plug and a shielded cable to run from that to the knock sensor. 

"Flywheel supply" is an internal circuit that the flyback diodes on the aux outputs dump any large voltage spikes to.  

[darylwalford]

2 hours ago, Adamw said:

You dont nesecarily need a B loom, but knock is on the B plug.  So you would need the B plug and a shielded cable to run from that to the knock sensor. 

"Flywheel supply" is an internal circuit that the flyback diodes on the aux outputs dump any large voltage spikes to.  

Ok thanks Adam, I will look into getting a B plug and shielded cable

[Adamw]

On 7/22/2021 at 8:39 PM, Adamw said:

Your flywheel supply voltage is very low in the log (should normally be close to batt voltage) - this is internal in the Xtreme so Im not sure what would cause that or if it is a problem, but I will ask one of the engineers tomorrow if it is anything to be worried about.  

I forgot to report back on this.  It was a false alarm.  The reported "Flywheel Supply" parameter is irrelevant on the Xtreme wire-in, it is only used on the plug-in ECU's.  In the Xtreme the flywheel rail is connected directly to the 14V pin so doesnt need to be monitored, that micro pin is just floating and measuring nothing.  This parameter will be hidden in the wire-in ecu's in a future update to avoid confusion.  

[darylwalford]

Thanks Adam, I have purchased a B plug and wired up the knock sensor.

Changed fuel equation load from MAP to BAP and it made a noticeable difference.

The car I'm working on was test driven and was running rough between 2-3000 rpm but was running well and seemed to make good power about 3000.

I disconnect the VVT and test drove the car again and it was better at low rpm but worse up higher.

I had a look at the VVT targets and they were all over the place (possibly changed by the tuner) so I changed them to look more like the stock tables and it made a noticeable improvement between 2-3000rpm. 

I was looking at your response to another poster a while ago regarding beams VVTi not working, your reply said that their VVT targets were zeroed and you posted the stock 3SGE Beams VVT targets, the table you posted was MAP vs RPM but since I don't have a map sensor mine is TP vs RPM.

Do you have a VVT target table showing TP vs RPM or should it look much the same as the MAP table?

above 3000, not about

[Adamw]

Yeah it will look much the same as MAP.  Think of Zero throttle of about 30-40kpa, half throttle about 80kpa and WOT = 100Kpa.

[darylwalford]

Thanks again.