Altezza no start - pulling my hair out!

[Larby]

Hi All, 

Hoping the collective intelligence in here may be able to help me get this Altezza started!!

Car in a nutshell: Altezza RS200, 3SGE BEAMS motor, newly built, turbo converted, all done to a high standard.

Running the Link Plugin G4+ ECU, Base map is Toyota Altezza SXE10 G4+ plugin modelled fuel

As far as I can see, crank and cam signals are fine. In Runtime values triggers 1 & 2 are showing as good, RPM is good, injectors coming in as you'd expect etc. Pulgs are getting wet, so I know I have fuel. 

I've triple checked ignition & injectors. All working, all in the right positions.

Fuel set to 43psi, there's a gauge on the reg. It's a return system now, so I've set it as such. Injector size is set to 750cc (they're DW 750's), 

I've verified timing in trigger calibration. The standard 145 degrees seems fine, I've also tried -215 degrees just in case it was somehow 360 degrees out. 

Compression is good on all cylinders (just under 150psi dry - lowish comp pistons and new build)

Spark seems good. It'll jump a 15mm gap on my tester, so should at least be enough to start.

 

So, why-oh-why will it not damn well start?!

This car has run before, breifly. I started it, it was running on three. Checked and found a duff coil. Ordered a new one, popped it in, won't start. Go figure.

I crank it, it does nothing, then almost always gives a huge backfire just after I stop cranking. That's been my life for the last few days. Crank, crank, crank, nothing, BOOM!!

Interestingly, if I change the trigger cal to 90 degrees or there abouts, it seems almost as though it wants to go, but just never actually catches. 

I've sat and changed the trigger cal from -220 to 200 degrees in 10 degree increments, trying to start every time. Still no start. Slight variations sometimes, but no starting. 

I'm honestly just totally, totally baffled at this stage. It has air, it has fuel, it has spark (seemingly even at the right time), so WHY WILL IT NOT DAMN-WELL START??!!!

So anyway. I've attached the cal file, a log of an attempted start, a log from the trigger scope, hopefully that'll give people something to look at along with the above?

I'll honestly book a flight, come to your house/work and kiss you if you can figure this out. It's driving me insane.

Thanking you muchly,

Larby

 

Nelson 19_01_22 Toyota Altezza SXE10 G4+ plugin Modelled fuel.pclr Trigger Scope Log 2022-01-19 5;19;30 pm.llg Log 2022-01-19 5;20;04 pm.llg

[essb00]

Try changing the trigger arming threshold to the following, then try again.

[Adamw]

The first thing I suggest in a case like this is spray some starter fluid in then crank.  If there are still no signs of life with starter fluid then you can mostly rule out a fuel issue and concentrate on others.   

Nothing jumps out in the log and scope looks fine.

I have however had a 4AGE come to me that wouldnt start and after the basics including a compression test all looked fine, I pulled the cam cover off and found the cam timing was completely wrong - not just a little, cant rember no but intake was like 180 out.  I was surprised the compression was completely normal.    So I would double check that also - just a quick visual with the cam cover off is enough - at TDC #1 compression, on any belt driven dohc like this the two front lobes will be pointing outwards like the pic below.  Say somewhere around 1-3oclock on one side and 9-11oclock on the other.  

[Larby]

1 hour ago, essb00 said:

Try changing the trigger arming threshold to the following, then try again.

Thank you, I'll give that a try. I did lower the values a few days back with no joy, but I've gone through other things since, so no harm in trying again!

 

28 minutes ago, Adamw said:

The first thing I suggest in a case like this is spray some starter fluid in then crank.  If there are still no signs of life with starter fluid then you can mostly rule out a fuel issue and concentrate on others.   

Nothing jumps out in the log and scope looks fine.

I have however had a 4AGE come to me that wouldnt start and after the basics including a compression test all looked fine, I pulled the cam cover off and found the cam timing was completely wrong - not just a little, cant rember no but intake was like 180 out.  I was surprised the compression was completely normal.    So I would double check that also - just a quick visual with the cam cover off is enough - at TDC #1 compression, on any belt driven dohc like this the two front lobes will be pointing outwards like the pic below.  Say somewhere around 1-3oclock on one side and 9-11oclock on the other.  

Thanks Adam, I've seen you crop up a few times in other posts I'd looked through, so happy to see you on here!
There's a bit of a long story about the engine build involving a staff member I removed a month or so ago. The cam timing had originally been incorrect, but I have personally fitted the belt this time around. 
That said, there's got to be something wrong, so I'll get the cam cover off and double check things. I'll let you know how I get on. 

[Larby]

14 hours ago, Adamw said:

The first thing I suggest in a case like this is spray some starter fluid in then crank.  If there are still no signs of life with starter fluid then you can mostly rule out a fuel issue and concentrate on others.   

Nothing jumps out in the log and scope looks fine.

I have however had a 4AGE come to me that wouldnt start and after the basics including a compression test all looked fine, I pulled the cam cover off and found the cam timing was completely wrong - not just a little, cant rember no but intake was like 180 out.  I was surprised the compression was completely normal.    So I would double check that also - just a quick visual with the cam cover off is enough - at TDC #1 compression, on any belt driven dohc like this the two front lobes will be pointing outwards like the pic below.  Say somewhere around 1-3oclock on one side and 9-11oclock on the other.  

Checked through this, all seems fine. I’m pleased, seeing as I fitted the belt!

Photos attached. Note it looks like exhaust is a tooth out, but it isn’t. Just the way the photo shows it and the closest you can get it to perfect. If I move it back a tooth, it looks even further out the other way.

[Larby]

Further to this, I’ve confirmed that piston 1 TDC is just after the third pickup on the inlet cam.

Knowing this, I can refer back to the log I took on my scope, which shows crank trigger, inlet cam trigger and No1 ignition signal pulse.

I can see the ignition event is just fractionally before that third pickup on the inlet cam, so I’m happy everything is exactly as it should be with ignition timing.

I have the cam pulleys exposed, so have added a timing mark in orange at TDC, so I can double idiot check my ignition signal with a timing light is actually on the correct stroke too.

I’ve also just received another set of brand new plugs, as who knows - maybe the week old ones in there are shot! 

[Brad Burnett]

Have you tried to sync the ignition timing with the spark plugs out, fuel turned off, and the base timing in the sync window set to zero? That is where i always start before even trying to start the car.  Yes it could be 360 out but that always gets me super close.

[Larby]

IT STARTS!! 

So, having been through absolutely everything and fitting (I suspect crucially!) another new set of plugs, it fired straight up!

The plugs in there were brand new Denso, but I just wonder if there was something up with them. It’s the only thing I changed!

I’m also finding the aftermarket coils it came with to be pretty temperamental, so I’m changing those out for a new set of genuine to hopefully have it ready to tune!

Thanks again to everyone who helped!