Trigger errors and Secondary injection issues

[Badnews]

7 hours ago, Adamw said:

Im starting to run out of ideas pretty quick.  

Is the battery in the trunk or still up front?

In the trunk and is a lithium Anti-Gravity battery.

My alternator output cable runs close to the ECU. You can see the amphenol connector behind the plugs. That is the output wire firewall pass thru going directly to the battery

I have a spare mag sensor and spare ECU I can try

 

 

[koracing]

If the ecu is mounted on a removable plate can you just unmount the plate and move it away from the alternator charging cable as a test?

I don't know if it is an issue, but all of your power distribution looks like it is happening near the ecu and is running through the same harness into the engine bay - I think this may be a fundamental issue.  No easy way to resolve that or even test it without somehow temporarily running all the power distribution outside of your main engine harness.  I know the coil, and igniter, and *somewhat* injector power is (on a normal celica) run somewhat segregated from the trigger signals.

[Badnews]

2 hours ago, koracing said:

If the ecu is mounted on a removable plate can you just unmount the plate and move it away from the alternator charging cable as a test?

I don't know if it is an issue, but all of your power distribution looks like it is happening near the ecu and is running through the same harness into the engine bay - I think this may be a fundamental issue.  No easy way to resolve that or even test it without somehow temporarily running all the power distribution outside of your main engine harness.  I know the coil, and igniter, and *somewhat* injector power is (on a normal celica) run somewhat segregated from the trigger signals.

The power from the battery to my relays is seperate. After the relays the injectors, coils and O2 sensor are all into the main engine harness.

[Badnews]

Took the ECU off the bracket and put my car cover under it to prop it up and away from the power wires. Like this made no change at all.

Then I changed to new spark plugs and that actually helped mildly.  I wasn't sure so I did a second test pull and it definitely improved some. Normally I hit 8500rpm and it just breaks up for awhile. After changing the plugs it hiccupped and they continued to rev after.

 

 

[Adamw]

Sorry Im not ignoring you, just busy as and havent had time to give this some proper thought.  Ill try to get back on here tonight or tomorrow.  

[Badnews]

Is it possible that I'm getting EMI into the crank trigger from the cam trigger still being in the main loom? I can run the cam signal  external from the main loom also to test. Didn't know if the shield could get say "contaminated" on the cam sensor and go into the crank since the grounds and shields splice together right before going into the ECU?

 

Also I have a spare coil on its way to swap out with my current ones just to see if one is bad.

[Badnews]

 

So here is everything done in order

 

1-moved IGN1A head ground away from ECU star ground point. (helped with errors in neutral at 5000rpm free revving)

 

This worked fine until under load (15psi+ of boost and 8000+rpm)

 

2-moved logic grounds on coils to head (did nothing)

3-Tried going to #2 and #3 trigger filters (made it worse)

3-Tried moving ECU grounds to Battery instead of head (did nothing)

4-add suppressor to coil power wires (did nothing)

5-rerouted crank trigger wires outside of main harness (did nothing)

6-rerouted crank sensor side of wiring away from alternator (did nothing)

7-changed spark plugs (thought it helped but looking at logs right after the boost was 18psi instead of 20psi so really it did nothing)

8-dismounted ECU to pull it way from alternator charge wire by putting car cover in between(did nothing)

9-rerouted the cam wiring and the crank wiring together away from all power wires (did nothing)

10-swapped in my buddies ECU (did nothing)

Next I'll try a new crank sensor.

(Edit)

11-new crank sensor (did nothing)

(Edit #2)

12-tried new plug wires (did nothing)

13-got an extra IGN1A coil and 1 by 1 swapped it out for each coil (did nothing)

Having my buddy make me a new triggee wheel for my backup motor. I'll swap just to test when I get it.

 

ADAM any other ideas to try?!?!?!?!

[Badnews]

Also got scopes during the miss again today

test 4 miss.llg test 3 miss.llg

[Adamw]

There is definitely still large spikes coming through on the trigger.  My feeling is it is still a small amount of the ignition current that is for some reason finding the path back to the battery easier by going through the sensor ground rather than via the main power ground.  ie resistance of sensor ground to battery is less that engine block to battery.   

Is there a ground cable all the way from the battery to the engine - or is it using chassis for some of it?    

 

[Badnews]

1 hour ago, Adamw said:

There is definitely still large spikes coming through on the trigger.  My feeling is it is still a small amount of the ignition current that is for some reason finding the path back to the battery easier by going through the sensor ground rather than via the main power ground.  ie resistance of sensor ground to battery is less that engine block to battery.   

Is there a ground cable all the way from the battery to the engine - or is it using chassis for some of it?    

 

Just grounds from the motor to the chassis in the engine bay. I can try a cable from the block directly to the battery

[Badnews]

Added 2 grounds from the cylinder head to the battery. Did a test drive and it did nothing.

 

Not sure what else I can try to do. Someone suggested get rid of my lithium battery and go to a optimum sytle one.

 

Just to test I think I'm going to pull my alternator belt off and try a quick pull.

[Badnews]

Another update.

Tried lowering ignition dwell from 4.7ms to 3ms. (Did nothing)

 

Pulled my alternator belt and did a test drive without the alternator working (did nothing)

 

Only 2 things I can think of to try

 

1-hall sensor

2-grind teeth off my trigger wheel and try like a 20 tooth wheel

 

Adam do you have any other ideas?

[Adamw]

On 7/4/2022 at 2:47 AM, Badnews said:

Only 2 things I can think of to try

 

1-hall sensor

2-grind teeth off my trigger wheel and try like a 20 tooth wheel

A hall sensor is possibly worth a try now.  They typically do have more filtering in them, but I still suspect the noise is more on the ground side that the signal side.  I dont think removing teeth is going to change those spikes of electrical noise we see in the scope.  

 

On 7/4/2022 at 2:47 AM, Badnews said:

Only 2 things I can think of to try

Kris mentioned earlier that you had an MSD version of the "IGN1A" coil?  For me that is the only other potential unknown that I can come up with. 

I was "online friends" with Lance Nist for many years, he was the man that designed the original mercury coil and then later the improved performance version that he called the "IGN1A",  The IGN1A has a rare earth magnet added to the transformer core and a bigger driver compared to the mercury one to give it more grunt.  He has given me a pretty good rundown in the past on how the grounds work internally and how they they were  designed to be wired externally.  However I know nothing about the MSD version - I dont know if it was licensed from him or Motron etc  or if it is only the foot print that is the same and nothing internally...   In general I havent had much drama with MSD stuff but its just an unknown for me is all Im saying.  I have certainly seen lots of drama with generic brand smart coils from China etc that have done very odd stuff like sending the full 400v primary spike back out of the trigger wire everytime there is a spark etc...    

So if there was any chance of borrowing some genuine IGN1A's - or even some old LS coils etc it could be worth a shot.  You could also drop the dwell even further than you have as a test - the IGN1A is more powerful than most even at 2ms.  

[Badnews]

10 minutes ago, Adamw said:

A hall sensor is possibly worth a try now.  They typically do have more filtering in them, but I still suspect the noise is more on the ground side that the signal side.  I dont think removing teeth is going to change those spikes of electrical noise we see in the scope.  

 

Kris mentioned earlier that you had an MSD version of the "IGN1A" coil?  For me that is the only other potential unknown that I can come up with. 

I was "online friends" with Lance Nist for many years, he was the man that designed the original mercury coil and then later the improved performance version that he called the "IGN1A",  The IGN1A has a rare earth magnet added to the transformer core and a bigger driver compared to the mercury one to give it more grunt.  He has given me a pretty good rundown in the past on how the grounds work internally and how they they were  designed to be wired externally.  However I know nothing about the MSD version - I dont know if it was licensed from him or Motron etc  or if it is only the foot print that is the same and nothing internally...   In general I havent had much drama with MSD stuff but its just an unknown for me is all Im saying.  I have certainly seen lots of drama with generic brand smart coils from China etc that have done very odd stuff like sending the full 400v primary spike back out of the trigger wire everytime there is a spark etc...    

So if there was any chance of borrowing some genuine IGN1A's - or even some old LS coils etc it could be worth a shot.  You could also drop the dwell even further than you have as a test - the IGN1A is more powerful than most even at 2ms.  

My buddy has a brand new set of IGN1A coils from Fueltech that he has yet to use. I'll ask him to borrow them for a quick test. I also ground my trigger wheel this morning down to a 20 tooth wheel. I have a 60-2 as a backup I can put back on. 

[Badnews]

Tried a 20 tooth trigger wheel.  The car did not run smooth under boost but did not register trigger errors.  I have below my tune, a scope at like 1000rpm. scope at 5000rpm (during it not running smooth), and a log which I tried to floor it and it did not run smooth then the 2nd attempt to floor the car in the log I did a scope so the log freezes during it.  But during the log you can see the rpm go up and down like 200rpm rather than just a smooth increase of rpm.

Tune
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YIfDYKbEa0_kVYDcPXoWTuyKa7UHrLFs/view?usp=sharing

Scope at 1000rpm
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1s1oIhIc4fI9EAWvCvY5GFEEW6ikh4ELi/view?usp=sharing

Scope at 5000rpm
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gmtLnz1H5uuaCKLmhDXkTC_bPygPp79G/view?usp=sharing

Log for 2 pulls
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KxpP10dgg7jaG9iiSnSfTqGKN6TCPkyf/view?usp=sharing

[Adamw]

I dont really see any reason for it to be running rough.  The dwell is quite stable so that is generally a good sign it is getting nice repeatable timing between teeth on the crank wheel.  In the 5000RPM scope there is still a little spike of electrical noise in one spot just as you blipped the throttle, but it is either not big enough or doesnt cross zero so it doesnt look like it has caused any issues.  

Its going to need a bit more testing to see if the trigger issue really is solved.  I can see it looks like it jerks or "bunny hops" in a couple of areas but I dont see any real reason for that, usually it is ignition timing related but yours looks reasonably stable.  Potentially accel fuel is a little to sensative.

 

 

[Badnews]

Another update. 

 

Could not get the 20 tooth trigger wheel to run correctly. Just seems like when I get "noise" since there are less teeth it messed up more. 

My buddy made me a new 60-2 wheel and I put that back in. Then swapped in the Fueltech IGN1A coils and tested. Made no difference at all.

So I am left with trying a Hall sensor. The direct replacement one I want is on back order so I ordered a Cherry Hall sensor to rig it up enough to test.

 

After this I am out of ideas other then switch to different style coils all together.

 

 

[Adamw]

Yeah, you've certainly got a real stubborn one here.  Im starting to runn out of ideas too.  What is that sensor, it is not one I recognise visually?

[Badnews]

2 hours ago, Adamw said:

Yeah, you've certainly got a real stubborn one here.  Im starting to runn out of ideas too.  What is that sensor, it is not one I recognise visually?

It is from my old ECU company called Electromotive.  I was running this since the early 2000's and it ONLY worked with a 60-2 trigger wheel.  Here is a link to their site where they sell it.

Crank & Cam Sensors Archives - Electromotive

 

Think if the Hall sensor doesn't work there is a chance the stock Toyota 3S 36-2 crank trigger would work?

 

Edit: my buddy said he read that "The higher the voltage produced by a VR sensor, the more likely to be noise"

So maybe open up my air gap on my sensor since it is adjustable?

[Badnews]

Tried the cherry hall sensor and got the exact same results as the VR sensor. 

Scope

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1i_hm6JyYI2_QXHmV-GcrfqQVu7Uzv1x4/view?usp=sharing

I just don't understand where electrical noise from ignition comes from.  Is it from the power wire that I should rerun that outside the main harness separately? Does it emit from the cylinder head when the plugs fire?  What am I am really battling?  Is it from the coils that I should try to relocate them?

[Adamw]

Something odd I just noticed, Similar noise on trigger 1 still - but if we look at the trig 2 waveform directly underneath it is dead clean.  Looking back through your older scopes it is the same - noise only on trig 1.  

I will have to check with engineering if there is any hardware reason for that - for example there may be more filtering on trig 2 since it never has to read high tooth counts.  But thinking back at other cases Im pretty sure when there is a ground issue I have seen a similar noise on both triggers - they may have been VR cams tho.  

Is there anything different about trig 1 wiring than trigger 2?  Do they both run together and ground to same point etc?  I cant remeber if I have already asked - do you have access to a standalone scope?

 

 

On 7/24/2022 at 6:22 AM, Badnews said:

I just don't understand where electrical noise from ignition comes from.  Is it from the power wire that I should rerun that outside the main harness separately? Does it emit from the cylinder head when the plugs fire?  What am I am really battling?  Is it from the coils that I should try to relocate them?

It can come from many different forms, which is why it is so hard to diagnose.  The main thing you need to remember current always needs to flow back to its source.  It can be current from the ignition system finding an easier path back to its source by going through the ecu ground etc instead of its main ground.  Or it can be EMI where high voltage or current running in a big loop can generate a strong magnetic field that induces voltage into other wires etc.  

A couple of articles that you may find useful:

https://www.hpacademy.com/technical-articles/staying-grounded/

https://youtu.be/M1HfbXyYzSM

 

[Badnews]

The cam, crank and sheilding are all going to the same pin for both. Should I try to seperate the grounds. I could chasis ground the sheilding. Any other thoughts you have are greatly appreciated.

[Badnews]

Thinking of getting a PicoScope to try and help figure this out.  Any word from Engineering?  I saw the SR20 crank sensor article they had the issue on cam and crank sensors at the same time.  

Another thing I wanted to try is to quick Swap a G4X Furry or Extreme in quick and make an identical G4X tune as mine to just quick go and see if the updated ECU's have the same issue.  Just no luck finding anyone local with a one of those ECU's

 

[Badnews]

On 7/24/2022 at 5:42 PM, Adamw said:

Something odd I just noticed, Similar noise on trigger 1 still - but if we look at the trig 2 waveform directly underneath it is dead clean.  Looking back through your older scopes it is the same - noise only on trig 1.

I will have to check with engineering if there is any hardware reason for that - for example there may be more filtering on trig 2 since it never has to read high tooth counts.

Is there anything different about trig 1 wiring than trigger 2?  Do they both run together and ground to same point etc? 

Any luck with engineering?

 

And the grounds & sheilding all goes to the same pin for both cam and crank.

[Adamw]

18 hours ago, Badnews said:

Any luck with engineering

Sorry I havent yet, I was working away for a week, then had a few days off last week.  Will get onto it now.