TheChrisLeonard Posted June 1, 2022 Report Share Posted June 1, 2022 Hi, ive got a gen 1 coyote with a xtremex. Myself and my tuner do not see a reason why the car will not start on its own. The car seems to have injector pulse by using my multimeter when cranking. I checked that the injectors are all firing on the correct cylinders using the injector test. Base pressure is 45lbs I have also tried adding a ton of fuel to the map. I have attached my tune file. If you guys could find anything wrong it would be a huge help! Thank you. coyo kinda ran.pclx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koracing Posted June 1, 2022 Report Share Posted June 1, 2022 Once it's started with starting fluid does it stay running on its own? You're not out of fuel are you? Do you have a fuel pressure gauge installed or can you add a fuel pressure sensor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheChrisLeonard Posted June 1, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2022 Fuel pressure is set at 45 psi with a manual gauge. The car does not stay running after. It has 6 gallons of fresh e85 and a 10 gallon fuel cell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted June 1, 2022 Report Share Posted June 1, 2022 Would be best to give us a short log of it cranking. What size injectors? A good test for fuel volume is to try doubling the master fuel, then try halving it to see if there are any more promising signs of life in either direction. Have the injectors been used before? Do they give a good sharp click in test mode? I have had some injectors in the past that have been sitting around for a while and they still give a click in test mode (quieter than normal tho) but are partially stuck and dont actually flow anything. Unrelated to the start issue - but you should also change the active edge setting on the ethanol sensor to rising, it is showing incorrect fuel temp at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheChrisLeonard Posted June 2, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2022 I have had a ton of help from Jason. The car apparently isnt getting spark while cranking but gets spark on the tester. So fuel is possible to be ok... Very weird it fires with fluid. Thanks for the help Adam, i switched the E85 sensor around. injectors are new Holley 120lb flow matched. they click on test. I can smell fuel when cranking and plugs were soaked at first so it was getting fuel. coyo jason help.pclx cns 2 PC Datalog - 2022-06-1 9;10;36 pm.llgx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koracing Posted June 2, 2022 Report Share Posted June 2, 2022 Do you have resistors added to the injector circuit? The holley 120lb are typically low impedance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheChrisLeonard Posted June 2, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2022 they are the high impedance injectors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted June 2, 2022 Report Share Posted June 2, 2022 Dwell time is zero in that log so that would usually suggest the ecu is not happy about something related to the trigger and cant sync. So there would have been no spark when that log was taken. Can you do us a triggerscope while cranking. Make sure you hit the capture button while the engine is cranking, not before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheChrisLeonard Posted June 2, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2022 Here is the trigger scope. I also just changed the cam sensors over to the 8v signal so that may clear up some. TriggerScopeLog.llgx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted June 2, 2022 Report Share Posted June 2, 2022 I'll call in @Vaughan to see if he can take a look at the reason for no dwell. Im not in my office today so dont have all the info or gear I need to test what is going on. On first peak I thought the scope looks like it should be acceptable to me. Possibly trig 1 arming threshold is a bit too high, but lets see if Vaughan can test on the bench or has any other ideas. Otherwise I can take a closer look at the end of the day. Vaughan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheChrisLeonard Posted June 2, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2022 here is the latest crank log, looks like theres dwell now Still no start but theres spark so i'm going to do base timing next CNS 3 PC Datalog - 2022-06-2 6;13;58 pm.llgx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaughan Posted June 2, 2022 Report Share Posted June 2, 2022 6 minutes ago, TheChrisLeonard said: here is the latest crank log, looks like theres dwell now Still no start but theres spark so i'm going to do base timing next yeah that shows fuel and spark being commanded from the ecu, turn off the fuel and set the base timing. Don't forget timing can be bang on on the crank pulley but 180deg out on the cam so if it's getting fuel, getting spark, isn't flooded and is backfiring out the intake try moving timing offset by 360deg. Also use the ignition test to ensure your timing light setup works before you start cranking it over for base timing TheChrisLeonard 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheChrisLeonard Posted June 3, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2022 Does the factory 2017 coyote coil ned an igniter? I measure .8-.9 ohms on the coil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted June 3, 2022 Report Share Posted June 3, 2022 Yep, pretty much all Fords are dumb coils. TheChrisLeonard 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheChrisLeonard Posted June 3, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2022 Ok ive been told multiple times i dont need them… should i run ignitors or ls coils? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted June 3, 2022 Report Share Posted June 3, 2022 Yeah, if it is <1ohm it is definitely a dumb coil. The reason for the no start would be with no ignitor the spark would be very weak. obviously just strong enough to ignite the high volatile starter fluid sometimes but not e85. The ignition system change going forward is proobably personal preference. 2 x decent 4 channel ignitors end up costing about the same as completely new smart coils in my experience so cost is a moot point. Stock coils with ignitors will probably be the neatest and require less wiring changes. The potential downside maybe the stock coils have less energy than the well proven LS coils (I have no experience with the Ford coils and would only be a consideration if high boost was intended in future). The LS coils will need a some more wires added and brackets and HT leads made. TheChrisLeonard 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheChrisLeonard Posted June 4, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2022 I ended up ordering the holley coil drivers. I was considering smart coils but many people have had success with stock coils. It can always be changed in the future too. I’d build a new engine harness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2.0L_turbo Posted June 4, 2022 Report Share Posted June 4, 2022 easy way to tell if your coils are smart or dumb, pull of the connector to the coil if it has 2 wires it is a dumb coil. If it has 3 or more wires it is a smart coil. TheChrisLeonard 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted June 4, 2022 Report Share Posted June 4, 2022 7 hours ago, 2.0L_turbo said: if it has 2 wires it is a dumb coil. If it has 3 or more wires it is a smart coil. Incorrect. Many 3 wire coils are dumb coils. Including most Ford and BMW. The 3rd wire is typically the HV ground for the secondary winding. The correct test is to measure resistance as the OP already did. A smart coil will have resistance >300ohm. A dumb coil will have resistance below 2ohm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2.0L_turbo Posted June 5, 2022 Report Share Posted June 5, 2022 1 hour ago, Adamw said: Incorrect. Many 3 wire coils are dumb coils. Including most Ford and BMW. The 3rd wire is typically the HV ground for the secondary winding. The correct test is to measure resistance as the OP already did. A smart coil will have resistance >300ohm. A dumb coil will have resistance below 2ohm. interesting my bad everything I have ever read has stated what I mentioned and from personal experience has it never done me wrong but if their is a correct way of handling this Id trust your judgment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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