G4+ Thunder with Razor and Keypad

[4ttl]

Hi guys/gals

I need a little information about the CAN data streams that come embedded in the G4x series but not G4+

 

I am adding a Razor and Keypad to a G4+ Thunder but the CAN data streams are not available in the G4+ software

Also, I will need to configure pumps, fans and such to be driven over CAN to the PDM

Am I able to do this? Is g4+ limited to simple dash streams and not able to command CAN I/O?

 

Thanks in advance

[Adamw]

As for controlling stuff connected to the PDM via the ECU, you can do most of the same stuff with custom streams in G4+.  The main functionality that is missing in G4+ is it is pretty limited in what PWM type functions can be sent over CAN.  From memory you can do boost control, idle control & fuel pump speed, you cant do any "GP PWM's".  In terms of sending button presses and other logic from Keypad/PDM to control things in the ECU such as boost control etc, that is mostly possible - there are a couple of exceptions, from memory the "start/stop button" function doesnt accept a CAN input as well as traction control disable - there are some workarounds.  

Logging PDM stuff such as output currents, voltages, temps, etc will be much more limited in G4+.

There is quite complete documentation of the PWM messages in the G4X help file, but Im happy to help guide you if needed.

[4ttl]

Ok. Its just the easy stuff i need. Fuel pump, starter, and fan. Over 2 pdms if that makes it more interesting 

 

cheers

[4ttl]

OK, I've had a few days to go over this in person with the hardware on the bench..

Is there a LCS file for the PDM comms? I can make it work, it would save time to load a file and go.

Can I use CAN DI or AVI inputs from the PDM for sensors/switches? I can get the ECU to "see" a CAN DI but how do I get it to become useful. There are NO CAN DI or CAN AVI assignable like the G4X

 

Thanks

[Adamw]

3 hours ago, 4ttl said:

Is there a LCS file for the PDM comms? I can make it work, it would save time to load a file and go.

The standard PDM stream has at least 120 channels, probably more now as that was a while ago, so for G4+ you should do a custom stream with just the channels you need.  I will give a couple of examples below for sending say fuel pump request to PDM and receiving say a CAN DI into the ecu from the "high boost" keypad button. 

 

3 hours ago, 4ttl said:

Can I use CAN DI or AVI inputs from the PDM for sensors/switches? I can get the ECU to "see" a CAN DI but how do I get it to become useful. There are NO CAN DI or CAN AVI assignable like the G4X

The generic CAN Analogs are very limited in G4+, you can log them and use them on table axes but thats about all.  You cant rename them or assign units or non-linear calibration curves.  There are a few analog channels that you can write directly to the runtime - fuel and oil press are common ones that spring to mind.  CAN DI's can do most common functions like switch tables, switch functions like launch or ALS on and off, use in virtual auxes or GP outputs etc. For most of the other odd DI functions you can write directly to the runtime.  For example you can receive a CAN signal directly as "AC Request" rather than as CAN DI1 and assign that to AC request like you would do in G4X.  To see what can be written to directly, open the test calculator parameter selection form and set the filter to receive, it will list all the parameters that can be received via CAN.

 

 

Example for ECU to transmit Fuel pump and fan to PDM.  Stream 1 has 1 frame per virtual (or can use non virtual) aux that you want to send.  Frame ID is 0 for the first frame, 1 for the 2nd etc: 

 

These will be received into the PDM as CAN Function 1 & 2:

 

Now lets send a high boost and Launch keypad button to the ecu:

 

And the matching receive for the ECU: 

 

 

[Vaughan]

I made some examples a while ago

"Example files with PDM receiving 8 Virtual Aux's from G4+ and ECU receiving Keypad Function 1-8 as CAN DI and Keypad Function 9-15 as CAN Analog"

G4+ PDM CAN example.pclr G4+ PDM Keypad receive 502.lcs G4+ PDM VAux Transmit 500.lcs

[4ttl]

On 12/9/2022 at 8:21 AM, Vaughan said:

I made some examples a while ago

"Example files with PDM receiving 8 Virtual Aux's from G4+ and ECU receiving Keypad Function 1-8 as CAN DI and Keypad Function 9-15 as CAN Analog"

G4+ PDM CAN example.pclr 162.21 kB · 0 downloads G4+ PDM Keypad receive 502.lcs 2.2 kB · 0 downloads G4+ PDM VAux Transmit 500.lcs 1.64 kB · 0 downloads

Thanks for that, might've saved a few hours scratching my head.

 

On my bench testing it seems that I needed to include the frequency and duty to be sent to the pdm to get a functioning input, but your LCS doesn"t have it, am I adding unnecessary complexity to this or is it a firmware/bug issue?

A copy of the full LCS would make this trial and error approach redundant.

[Adamw]

11 hours ago, 4ttl said:

On my bench testing it seems that I needed to include the frequency and duty to be sent to the pdm to get a functioning input, but your LCS doesn"t have it, am I adding unnecessary complexity to this or is it a firmware/bug issue?

No you dont need to send frequency or duty, just a 0 or 1 in byte 1.  If it doesnt receive duty and frequency it defaults to 100%DC, 10000Hz.

 

11 hours ago, 4ttl said:

A copy of the full LCS would make this trial and error approach redundant.

What Vaughan has posted above is about the best you can do with a G4+.  A "full lcs" wouldnt even open in the software because it has a hard coded limit that only allows a total of 50 channels total over all streams.  

 

 

[4ttl]

14 hours ago, Adamw said:

No you dont need to send frequency or duty, just a 0 or 1 in byte 1.  If it doesnt receive duty and frequency it defaults to 100%DC, 10000Hz.

 

That would be great, I'm just saying that's not what I observed during testing. I don't have anything on the output, so that might be why it didn't behave the way it's supposed to. I'm going to do more testing.

 

 

:EDIT: OK, you are correct. If I send status to the PDM I can get it to turn on and off with just the one message.

However, If I want to control a PWM output(which I cannot send with G4+) I need to send frequency and duty. This would impact anyone who wanted to send FP control or wastegate duty to the PDM, It would be helpful if this information was available.

[Vaughan]

On 12/10/2022 at 12:29 PM, 4ttl said:

On my bench testing it seems that I needed to include the frequency and duty to be sent to the pdm to get a functioning input, but your LCS doesn"t have it, am I adding unnecessary complexity to this or is it a firmware/bug issue?

A copy of the full LCS would make this trial and error approach redundant.

Full CAN spec is available in the G4X PCLink help manual, Virtual Aux outputs don't have Frequency or Duty Cycle components like CAN Aux outputs do and G4+ doesn't have CAN Aux outputs. Sending a 0 frequency means the output is treated as an On/Off output.

20 hours ago, 4ttl said:

However, If I want to control a PWM output(which I cannot send with G4+) I need to send frequency and duty. This would impact anyone who wanted to send FP control or wastegate duty to the PDM, It would be helpful if this information was available.

Same as I have mentioned above and G4+ doesn't have Frequency or Duty Cycle runtimes to latch onto for the physical outputs that can do PWM.

[Adamw]

FP Speed and WGate DC channels are available in G4+ and can be sent via CAN. Just send a constant for whatever frequency you want.