4age 16v no start

[ThatSupraGuy]

Hi all, was wondering if anyone has any input on this. KE30 with 4age 16v turbo. I have wired in a Monsoon G4X. I have setup a MAP to the best of my ability and carried out all the calibrations (TPS and MAP sensors) but cant get the car the fire up. I have done a trigger scope record.

Any help would be appreciated.

4AGE.pclx ke30 4age trying to start.llgx

[essb00]

Your trigger 2 is noisy and the noise are touching the arming threshold voltage. Could you check how much is the air gap? It should be minimum 0.4mm for 4A-GE stock CAS.
Try to up the Trig 2 arming threshold to 0.3V for 500rpm on your table.

Also, did you use G1 or G2 for Trig 2?
If you used G2, trigger offset should be correct. If you used G1, try trigger offset 352.

[Adamw]

It looks like the ecu is interpreting the trigger signal correctly - at least it was when that scope was captured.  

Is this map not actually from your ECU?  It shows the engine was running and warm when the map was saved, and the ecu statistics shows it has started 740 times and its run for 841mins total?  It would be more useful to have the map from your ecu, as then the data is relevant.  

But my thoughts would be similar to essb00, possibly your trigger offset is out by 360deg.  Your master fuel may also be too small depending what size injectors you have.  10ms would be about what I would expect for ~700cc/min injectors.

 

[ThatSupraGuy]

I took a map from a 16v 4age and adjusted it to suit to the best of my ability as im learning as i go, first time wiring and setting up an ECU. Injector size is 440cc. I will check the trigger offset this weekend. 

Thanks for your help.

[ThatSupraGuy]

Hi all. have checked trigger offset and was at -8 deg , tried changing it to 352deg but still wouldnt start. Changed master fuel to 18ms, still nothing. it would try firing a couple of times on the first couple of cranks then flood itself. would have to pull plugs and clear the cylinders.

Any help would be appreciated.

4AGE 1.1.pclx

[essb00]

It just realized that it is based on my old-old map... It still has my engine number on the VIN in configuration page.

Anyway...
1. Try to verify the order of wiring for each of your COPs.
2. Fuel table is for 'modelled', so having to use it for 'traditional' would really make your engine flood.
3. Then also, you might have to make adjustments on your dwell control table (my stock ignition was just triggering CDI box, that's why I can keep the values low on the dwell control table). Try the attached table.

 

Ignition Dwell Control (ms).lte

[Adamw]

Can you do a PC log of some start attempts.  

[ThatSupraGuy]

Finally managed to get to the car today. Imported the ignition dwell control table and got some logs of trying to start. Still no start though  

4AGE NO START 1.1.llgx 4AGE NO START 1.2.llgx

[Adamw]

The ecu looks happy with everything in both those logs.  The inj PW is somewhere in the ballpark, dwell is being commanded and there are no cuts.  So at least the ecu is commanding fuel and spark.  

Are there any signs of life?  To get it to run you only need compression, fuel, and spark at the right time, so one of those fundamentals is missing.  Is the engine a known runner?  Have you checked compression? - the cranking RPM is quite high which could suggest compression is low.  Has the head or cambelt been off recently?  You can confirm whether fuel is the issue or not by giving it a quick squirt of starter fluid when cranking.  What does it have for coils/ign system?  Have you confirmed they are wired in the correct order using the test mode as essb00 suggested earlier?  You say you have checked trigger offset above, how did you do that?  Have you confirmed the TDC mark on the pulley is actually TDC?   

 

[ThatSupraGuy]

Engine was running before putting the turbo kit on so i would assume compression is good but will definitely check. There are small signs of life as itll crank then will sound like its trying to ignite, I'm wondering if the high rpm youre seeing in the log is when it's trying to fire. I went into trigger configuration and changed the trigger offset to 352 deg, but made no difference then changed back to -8 deg but still no difference,  i would also hit enter each time i changed the offset number. I did check that the coils were firing by testing each one using the ignition test function and were all good. Ignition coils are toyota 1nz style coils.

[Adamw]

39 minutes ago, ThatSupraGuy said:

I went into trigger configuration and changed the trigger offset to 352 deg, but made no difference then changed back to -8 deg but still no difference

Did you actually put a timing light on it to confirm the timing marks are lining up when cranking though?  There should definitely be a difference between those two settings if one of them were actually correct - one would be firing on the correct TDC, so if there was fuel and air you would have some signs of life, the other would move the spark to the exhaust stroke so you would get either nothing at all or sometimes a big backfire out the exhaust.    

[essb00]

Have you confirmed if your COPs are wired correctly in order of Ign1 to cyl 1, etc. If they're ok, next step is use a timing light as Adam mentioned to confirm if the ignition fires with the pulley TDC marker aligned to 10° BTDC on the timing belt cover.

On my 4A-GE 16V with stock 250cc injectors, (cranking) injector pw is around 14ms (about 30°C ECT/IAT)...
Yours is commanding (cranking) injector pw 16ms with 440cc injectors which I think is way too much. Try to put 12ms master fuel.
...or perhaps change it to modelled (enter your injector details in injector setup), then use my fuel table (not fully tuned) below.

Fuel Table 1.lte

[ThatSupraGuy]

Finally got it started, turns out we were one tooth out on the dizzy! Issue now is its throwing a code for injector duty cycle maxed out??  And running super rich. maybe because the injectors are maxing out?? And we dont have any idle control due to the fact there is no idle control valve, are there any ways around this for warm up situations?

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/ipf6h0lm6mn49x5dyt6nz/h?dl=0&rlkey=ge5h3zrkheasab4y1y0dk5re9

[Adamw]

The duty cycle error is just something in your tune.  But you didnt share that map and Im not going to try to guess.

It will get leaner once we see the tune to find what is giving you the large PW.  

Your RPM limit is set quite low also, you are hitting that in one of the logs.  

You will be able to get a small amount of idle control using idle ignition control, usually not enough for fast idle/cold start.  But you would usually do idle control last, you need to get it running well first.  
  

[ThatSupraGuy]

oh sorry i thought i did share the map file. Ive changed the rpm limit across the ECT range.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dbwp1nczdf06p1y/4AGE 1.1.pclx?dl=0

[essb00]

Well, it is really hard to tell what's going on as you don't have wideband o2 sensor connected yet on the logs.

...but correct the following on the screenshot below.
*Fuel system type = MAP referenced (as you don't seem to actually have an FP sensor installed).
Injector rated fuel pressure = try 300kpa (this is the usual manufacturer reference fuel pressure on the given flow rate).

[Adamw]

Yep essb00 is correct, the extreme inj PW would be due to your fuel system type set to FP sensor.  Your calculated differential pressure would be near zero at times when there is little manifold vacuum so the ecu would try to correct that by sending the inj PW to infinity and beyond.  

 

[ThatSupraGuy]

Finally got to the car the other day. Wired the wideband o2 sensor in and changed all the settings suggested by essb00 and car starts and runs ok. Got it up to temp and car idles somewhat. Then I noticed it was trying to cut out and I noticed on the pclink that the injectors and ign coils were cutting out then coming back on. I managed to get a log of this happening.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/0ktg1bsrdnup1u81763pa/h?dl=0&rlkey=qz1s3mla7wkxjuasma48b6n6d

[Adamw]

If you look at RPM you will see it drop to zero every few seconds, this is where the ecu has received a bad trigger signal and has lost position.  Most likely your trig 2 arming threshold in the 1000RPM cell is way too high.  Do a trigger scope at idle and set the arming threshold to 1/3-1/2 of the max voltage you see.