E36 Link ECU G4X won't start

[Stranger24]

Hi All,

setting up my first link from sratch. a bit of background

The car is BMW 1998 M52 Engine which is the EU Spec with alluminium block. The standard ECU is the Siemens MS41.

Link plug in won't work with it as it is suitable for M50 with Bosch MS3 ECU so I bought the loom

I swapped the loom, water temp sensor from M50 block, Crank and Camshaft sensor from M50 block and car won't start.

I have loaded the base map for G4x and can see it selects the multitooth for trigger and doesn't have anything for M50, very strange as they have one for M52! I have tried changing the trigger to M52 and still no luck.

So far:

ecu enabled

Tested individual injectors and can hear them clicking . Tested via link

Tested individual coil and can hear them clicking. tested via link

FUel pump is on AUX8, when I trun the key on, no sound and also when I test no sound as if no fuel is delivered

Trigger was on what came with base map (multitooth) and then changed to m52.

Sensors are three pin both so should be hall effect and have tested with pull up resistor on and off as well as raising and failing edge

Trigger scope is extremly slow and unresponsive, is it going to show live data once you press capture?

I have attached few screenshots . What do you think is the issue? Trigger scope certainly doesn't look right.

[aerace_fab]

Where you cranking it and then hit capture?

Your fuel pump not being activated isn't going to help so you should get that situated first before anything else.

[Stranger24]

27 minutes ago, aerace_fab said:

Where you cranking it and then hit capture?

Your fuel pump not being activated isn't going to help so you should get that situated first before anything else.

I did and didn’t, regardless didn’t seem to respond. Checked my laptop and utilisation was quite low on my laptop

 

should you start cranking and then press capture?

 

re fuel pump, any thoughts?

[Adamw]

1 hour ago, Aram said:

I swapped the loom, water temp sensor from M50 block, Crank and Camshaft sensor from M50 block and car won't start.

The loom is from a M50TUB right?  ie OBD1 Vanos?  It should be for a M3.3.1.  The M50 non vanos uses a M3.1 which has a different pinout again. 

Im not sure if the M50 crank sensor will actually work on the M52 crank wheel which is designed for a hall effect sensor but it may.  The trigger scope will confirm that.

 

37 minutes ago, Aram said:

should you start cranking and then press capture?

For the triggerscope you need to click capture when the engine is cranking. 

 

1 hour ago, Aram said:

I have loaded the base map for G4x and can see it selects the multitooth for trigger and doesn't have anything for M50, very strange as they have one for M52!

M52 has a dedicated trigger mode as it has fully variable Vanos but only a single "tooth" on the cam so it needs some special tricks to get enough resolution of cam position for acceptable cam control.  The M50TU only has on/off vanos, no position control so doesnt need a special trigger mode.  An M52 would still start and run with either mode though, just vanos control would be poor.

 

42 minutes ago, Aram said:

fuel pump, any thoughts?

Most likely a wiring issue.  When you set aux 8 to test mode it would ground pin 1 which is the pump control relay.  So trace back from there.

 

I suggest you attach a log and your tune so we have something info to work from. 

Have you checked base timing?  

 

 

 

 

[Stranger24]

It is m50b25 vanos loom, the sensors look identical so does the wheel, oy m52 was plastic housing and m50 had metal housing around the sensor

 

sure will capture rest in am and post back

 

is trigger scope generally unresponsive? Seems very slow

 

if i crank but don't click capture, will it still show the graph?

[Adamw]

5 minutes ago, Aram said:

the sensors look identical so does the wheel,

If the wheel is the same it should be ok.  It is not an engine I know well, but generally from most manufacturers a wheel designed for a hall effect sensor will have flat/wide teeth and a full depth cutout for the missing teeth, whereas a reluctor wheel will have sharper/pointy teeth and a half depth cutout for the missing tooth gap.  

 

8 minutes ago, Aram said:

is trigger scope generally unresponsive? Seems very slow

Im not really sure what you mean by that, it works just like any other oscilloscope, the bit you see is only a display, the waveform capture is all done by high speed RAM in the ecu, the scope will try to capture at least 720deg of engine cycle, so that could be a second or 2, after the capture then PC Link will pull the data out of the ecu memory to display it.  But it should all happen fairly quickly, I would expect the capture to show on screen within a couple of seconds of clicking capture for most common triggers.   

 

17 minutes ago, Aram said:

if i crank but don't click capture, will it still show the graph?

No.

[Stranger24]

Great thanks, I think I understand now. I appreciate your explanation 

 

oscilloscope data is generally instant

what confused me re trigger scope capture was, first it wasn't instant, you click on capture and nothing happens for 5-6 sec into engine cranking so it seems that is normal

 

secondly i would at times no press capture thinking it will show the graph but it seems there some sort of short memory in the trigger which once you press capture is activated and capture 1-2 sec and deactivates, is that correct? So if you cranking 15 sec, it is only showing 1-2 sec on the graph.

trying to clarify everything so hopefully can start in am( 6 hours from now) and figure out the issue.  So here are some questions:

re base map,  do you know why link has multitooth . I guess based on what you explained earlier m52 won't work but then it makes me wonder why link has m52 when they don't make any plug in ecu's for it

 

other question is do you have any thought on whether i should select rising, falling or all for the sensor?

 

as I can see it reads the engine rom so that should mean crank sensor i working

 

re base timing map, haven't touch it and it seems it is locker/ you can't modify when you select bmw m52 for the trigger setup

[Adamw]

10 hours ago, Aram said:

once you press capture is activated and capture 1-2 sec and deactivates, is that correct?

Yes, just like single shot mode on an oscilloscope.  Again you have a finite memory just like a real scope, you can only capture a short time period at a high sample rate.  

 

10 hours ago, Aram said:

re base map,  do you know why link has multitooth . I guess based on what you explained earlier m52 won't work but then it makes me wonder why link has m52 when they don't make any plug in ecu's for it

I already explained that in my post above.  The M52 has continuously variable vanos so needs a dedicated trigger mode.  The M50TU is a simple on/off vanos that doesnt need any cam control.  Both engines will start and run with either the Multitooth/missing mode as per our M50 base map, or in M52 mode.  The trigger offsets will likely be different between both modes which is why I asked if you have checked the base timing.

  

10 hours ago, Aram said:

other question is do you have any thought on whether i should select rising, falling or all for the sensor?

Which sensor?  If you are using a M50 crank sensor then this is a reluctor so you dont even have a choice which edge to use.  For trigger 2 edge, this should be set to All for the M52 trigger mode or if you are using multitooth/missing  mode then set exactly like out base map.  

 

 

[Stranger24]

thanks Adam. Issue was fuel pump relay, I fixed it and now car starts.

 

It is extremly rough, I am new to link and took a log to try and workout what is wrong . I noticed it is not reading oil temp, water temp and map seems to be consistent/ doesn't move much . I caliberated the map and tps. I think I need to disable maf sensor as it might be using that somewhere I guess.

base map and log file attached.

Now trigger scope looks ok to me, what do you think ?

log E36 first start.llgx E36 Base.pclx

[Adamw]

Oil temp sensor is not even connected to the ecu in those as far as I know.  ECT looks like it is working to me in your log.

MAP will be most of your issue.  The MAP sensor is on the ECU board, have you run a vacuum hose to the ecu?  

The MAF doesnt matter.  

 

[Stranger24]

yes there is a vaccume line from behind the throttle body to the map. re ect, does it use Celcius or F? how can I adjust the units? As I type, I am reading the legnthy manuals and excited to get this running

 

here is the ecu stats suggesting map is working but investigating why limit was reach 1.5k times

[Stranger24]

Ok have spent most of today on the car and started it. I have purchased a spark in-line tester to see if ecu ref timing currently at -328 is correct as car doesn't run well. there are no mark on m50 however tdc has a mark so should be able to know when it is at 0 degree.

does the trigger scope attached look normal to you? I applied filtering from level1 to 4 with no impact.

if you press the accelerator, it does rev ok / no issues however if you press slowly, it hangs on 2k roughly like a redline limit. I am thinking that is what the base map is really, now i need to start tuning it after I am confident the timing is right. 

I have read this post re timing/ didnt help

https://www.hpacademy.com/forum/general-tuning-discussion/show/setting-base-timing-bmw-m50m52

Tigger 2 set to all.llgx

[Adamw]

Have you got your MAP sensor working?  Have you checked base timing?  These are the most important and very first things you need right.  

 

2 hours ago, Aram said:

does the trigger scope attached look normal to you? I applied filtering from level1 to 4 with no impact.

Yes it is fine.  Filtering should be on level 1 for a 60-2 wheel.  

 

On 2/5/2023 at 9:19 AM, Aram said:

does it use Celcius or F?

Display units are your choice, hotkey "U" will quickly swap between unit sets, or go to >options>units>options for more specific settings.

[drifter17a]

Base time

[Stranger24]

I have started the car and it is stable. used timing gun and locked it to 0 degree. for anyone who may see this in future, e36 bmw have timing mark on 0 degree or tdc. I used paint marker on harmonic damper and also the aluminuim casing which has a mark on tdc. I then used an inline spark tested and worked out the base -328 set by link should be -324 and set ignition delay to 80s/was stable

 

I don't have an AFR installed yet and trying to see what is the best number for my master fuel as car is running extremly rich. I changed the current 20 ms master fuel to 10 ms and instantly car started to run better.

 

@Adamw I have seen another post you had back in 2018 on what is the best number for master fuel however don't have AFR. Is there any thought on best way of calculating the master fuel ms value whilst installing AFR?

 

[Adamw]

On 2/6/2023 at 10:04 AM, Adamw said:

Have you got your MAP sensor working? 

 

[Stranger24]

I would say so, have vacume line with no tapping direct to the ecu and can see it is reading values from engine

[Adamw]

So ~100Kpa with the engine off and less than 40kpa when idling?

[Admiral Akhtar]

For future reference the M52 trigger mode will be incorrect for your engine and you should use the M50 Vanos configuration of Multitooth/missing tooth.
This is because the Link configuration is for the M52tu engines in the E46, which come with dual vanos and continuously variable cam control as Adam stated.
The E36 M52 is Single vanos and exactly the same system as used in the M50TU engines 

However it will run with both, but the Cam sensor may be configured incorrectly 

[Stranger24]

On 2/7/2023 at 12:00 AM, Adamw said:

So ~100Kpa with the engine off and less than 40kpa when idling?

yep