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2GR-FE Idle Help


DO1023

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Hiya all - I'm hoping someone is able to help me here.

I'm trying to get my car to idle well again ( it last ran on the g4+ ) but ever since switching from the g4+ to g4X I've not been able to get a stable idle. I've since sold that ecu but If I were to plug it in now and power the car on - the idle would be great.

So I'm wondering - what am I missing?

I'll attach the gt4+ calibration and my current calibration.

I logged for a few hours trying different thing today. 

What I'm really trying to iron out is getting the idle and low rpm/low load revving down so that my transmission controller (HTG GCU) can do it's learning process fully. At present if try to give the car any throttle it essentially just misfires. At idle even, it sounds as if there is a misfire.

 

 

There was one point where both lambdas matched the target.. but this ' misfire ' condition persisted.


While I await a smoke tester, anything stand out here? Anything I have misconfigured perhaps?

I've checked for exhaust leaks, vaccum leaks etc so short of the smoke tester I'm not sure.

I don't believe it's the cams as when vvt is on - they are fine and even with vvt off - this issue persists.

 

 

I've compared what i could tell that's different from my G4+ map to this g4X map and i really don't see what it could be.


In CL Lambda - this issue kind of switches around but one bank or the other will l basically hunt target AFR to Max/Min Clamp. IF I raise or lower the clamp ( respectively ) - the corresponding lambda sensor just hunts in that direction until it hits the new max/min.


Any help would be greatly appreciated - getting a bit desperate at this point and this forum always seems to come through for me...

Thank you!


I still dont seem to be able to attach files over 25kb so i've put the log and cal files in this google drive with the 5/22 date.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1vW4s2359l4TvHrfpu_UTqQQR-OXciB3d?usp=sharing

I have also tried offsetting the base cal by 360, -360, 180 and -180.

The car won't even start.

 

 

0 is where base timing is set and that's where the timing light matches the mark on the crank.

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  • DO1023 changed the title to 2GR-FE Idle Help

Link only seems to have a single file, 'final_.pclr', do you have a copy of your current G4X file and a log of it trying to idle?

I don't use CLL at idle and I do use Idle ignition control, I used to have issues with a hunting idle but my motor also has a different cam setup in it and higher comp pistons.

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I noticed that probably right when you replied. The link has been updated. Sorry about that.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1vW4s2359l4TvHrfpu_UTqQQR-OXciB3d?usp=sharing This is it here.


I'm going through this and I am noticing some Trig1 errors intermittently throughout the logs... I'm not sure what that could be. I don't see a param for trig2 err counter. 

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Looking in the log around the 12s mark which I assume is idle. Your APS MAin/Sub don't match each other very well and same for your TPS Main/Sub. Your APS is also like 2.2%, are you holding the throttle open at this point? Your idle isn't active at the 11.4s mark because of idle lockouts.

5% also seems like quite a high throttle position needed to maintain idle.

You've got a value in your LTT table that it is oscillating in and out of which will screw with fueling, turn of CLL at idle and clear any cells in the LTT table around idle.

I prefer to idle at more like 15deg ignition timing and use a Porportional gain more like 1 for my idle ignition control.

 

Start by making sure that your APS signal is 0 when you're off the pedal then make sure APS Sub and Main match and then manually calibrate the E-Throttle.

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I think that could be because of the trans controller so i'll take alook there to see if it is is trying to manipulate the throttle in any way.

The raw voltages are sent out to the trans controller and back into the ECU over CAN. This is preferred to a physical intercept and seems to work well for others. It is possible though that it's attempting to manipulate the throttle in some way during that point so I will definitely check that!!|

I imagine this would cause idle control to be a bit all over the place but would it cause a " misfire " - I say misfire because I'm not quite sure what to call it. I can attach some videos of the sound of the vehicle on the G4+ and then on the g4X and it's pretty clear that the engine doesn't seem to be " running right ".

I'll do also what you've mentioned as wel w.r.t the idle. This was all copied over from the g4+ tune where the tuner at the time chose to do closed loop idle ( perhaps because of e85? At current the car is on pump gas but we will be going back to flex and soon as I can get the dang thing to work )

Later in the logs if you also add " gear " to your parameter list you can see when I am attempting to do the trans controller learning. I cycle from 0 (N) and then 1-6 at some points and then youlll see me applying throttle. During this phase it misfires quite heavily as well.

I've added two video folders to that same link - one for g4+ and g4x. Hearing them - you can hear pretty well how different things sound.

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4 minutes ago, DO1023 said:

I imagine this would cause idle control to be a bit all over the place but would it cause a " misfire " - I say misfire because I'm not quite sure what to call it. I can attach some videos of the sound of the vehicle on the G4+ and then on the g4X and it's pretty clear that the engine doesn't seem to be " running right ".

Run less ignition advance and get sort the Fuel stuff I mentioned above (turn off cll at idle and clear the ltt table around idle). Your fueling is moving all over the place erratically because of the CLL and LTT.

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Okay will definitely follow your recommendations there.

Just to clarify - "cll " makes sense - closed loop lambda. But what is "ltt"? Sorry for my ignorance there - just want to make sure I'm understanding you fully and completely :)

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As a side note your ethanol % reading is coming back at 11% which based on your Fuel Table Ratio Table means you are using 11% fueling from Fuel Table 2 and the rest from Fuel table 1, Fuel table 2 is all zeroes

Just now, DO1023 said:

But what is "ltt"?

Closed loop lambda Long term trim tables

Capture.PNG

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Thanks mate - I really appreciate it. I'll give those a try here in the morning.


Any idea on the trigger errors?

6 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

As a side note your ethanol % reading is coming back at 11% which based on your Fuel Table Ratio Table means you are using 11% fueling from Fuel Table 2 and the rest from Fuel table 1, Fuel table 2 is all zeroes

Closed loop lambda Long term trim tables

Capture.PNG



Oh.. I did not know that.

I imagine I don't want - not being the tuner - any additional fuel tables on. So I should probably turn off multi fuel or whatever is giving me that second table?

 

Going from Modeled - multi fuel to just modelled should do this?

 

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31 minutes ago, DO1023 said:

Any idea on the trigger errors?

Looks like they're all on stall (ECU expecting a tooth but never comes because engine has stopped spinning) so nothing to worry about.

32 minutes ago, DO1023 said:

I imagine I don't want - not being the tuner - any additional fuel tables on. So I should probably turn off multi fuel or whatever is giving me that second table?

not a bad idea to set the Fuel table Ratio Table to all 0 so it always uses only Fuel Table one. Or set the Dual table mode to off, these are both found in Fuel -> Fuel Corrections -> Dual Fuel Table

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1 minute ago, Vaughan said:

Looks like they're all on stall (ECU expecting a tooth but never comes because engine has stopped spinning) so nothing to worry about.

not a bad idea to set the Fuel table Ratio Table to all 0 so it always uses only Fuel Table one. Or set the Dual table mode to off, these are both found in Fuel -> Fuel Corrections -> Dual Fuel Table

Okay great - that's good to hear. Thank you for checking that for me! And I'll do that as well for the fuel table. 

I've give all this a try tomorrow! 

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15 hours ago, Vaughan said:

Looks like they're all on stall (ECU expecting a tooth but never comes because engine has stopped spinning) so nothing to worry about.

not a bad idea to set the Fuel table Ratio Table to all 0 so it always uses only Fuel Table one. Or set the Dual table mode to off, these are both found in Fuel -> Fuel Corrections -> Dual Fuel Table

So no luck here. I've added a folder ( 5-23 ) with logs and a cal file after the change. 


It idles quite low now and not as stable and the " misfire " like behavior still persists.

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Your APS main/sub and TPS main/sub pairs still don't match each other which won't affect your idle but needs to be fixed at some point.

You are still at a higher than 0% APS when you are off the pedal which means you never get into idle control (your idle ignition status and idle status both showing hold - throttle open).

Also your Idle Target RPM Table shows that you are aiming for 1200RPM when up to temperature and so as soon as you do enter idle it will try and raise it, you want this to better reflect your actual target idle.

Once you actually get the idle activated and the idle ignition control working properly (not pinned to 0deg trying to bring it down) it should smooth it right out.

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29 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Your APS main/sub and TPS main/sub pairs still don't match each other which won't affect your idle but needs to be fixed at some point.

You are still at a higher than 0% APS when you are off the pedal which means you never get into idle control (your idle ignition status and idle status both showing hold - throttle open).

Also your Idle Target RPM Table shows that you are aiming for 1200RPM when up to temperature and so as soon as you do enter idle it will try and raise it, you want this to better reflect your actual target idle.

Once you actually get the idle activated and the idle ignition control working properly (not pinned to 0deg trying to bring it down) it should smooth it right out.

Y eah I think the throttle can be ironed out with APS/TPS lockout? Right now its at 1%. Should move it up to whatever the trans controller is requesting. I imagine when things are more stable that will go down from the 5% - it requires a stable idle to function well so trying to fix it there is moot at this point I think. I'll try that.


for the idle ignition control - I may not have a good understanding. What am I doing wrong vs what you say I should be doing?

 

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In this folder I have a log and cal.


Nothing has changed other than me raising the lockout to 2.5%  - which covers the 2% or therabouts APS main. 


I set a 1050 idle target. It doesnt do much better any higher but it did actually go into idle " active " which is good. Had to raise the lockout RPM to 1900. Had 500 before oddly.


The misfire sound is still present though although lambda and idle are hitting the targets.

here's a direct link

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1bcTb7y4EX3h2EFtd9jGaZw-OiQXggVhK?usp=share_link

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36 minutes ago, DO1023 said:

Y eah I think the throttle can be ironed out with APS/TPS lockout? Right now its at 1%. Should move it up to whatever the trans controller is requesting. I imagine when things are more stable that will go down from the 5% - it requires a stable idle to function well so trying to fix it there is moot at this point I think. I'll try that.

Maybe just adjust the calibration voltages?

10 minutes ago, DO1023 said:

I set a 1050 idle target. It doesnt do much better any higher but it did actually go into idle " active " which is good. Had to raise the lockout RPM to 1900. Had 500 before oddly.

idle rpm lockout value is for the amount above idle target when using closed loop or ignition idle control

Thinking about misfire stuff, did you change the pullup resistors on the cam sensors when moving from a G4+ to a G4X? And is it definitely running on all 6 and only dropping one occasionally or is it running on 5 consistently?

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Why is the trans controller requesting 2 & 3% AP when the engine is meant to be idling?  It should only be manipulating the APS signal when there is a torque modification required, so either there is something wrong with the trans controller setup or the APS wiring to it.  The APS sub/main signals that the ecu receives should match and should be zero at idle. 

As for idle settings; increase your actuator integral to about 0.05, set idle ign max clamp to 30° and min clamp to -5°, do a log from cold start up to fully warm and adjust your idle base position to match the actual throttle opening that is required to achieve the target RPM.  For example at the beginning of your log when ECT is 40° your base position is 8.7%, but it looks like it only needs about 5.5-6% to achieve your target rpm, at the end of the log when etc is 55°C, you need 5.5% throttle to idle but your base position table only has 4.5% commanded.  

Other tune suggestions:

Increase VVT RPM and ECT lockout so that it isn't active at idle or when the oil is cold.  Since your fuel table is referencing TPS, you ideally want the top row to reference normal warm idle TP - so for example when at normal operating temp, if it normally idles at 3.5% TP, then make the top row of your fuel table to be 3.5%TP.  Above that you want finer breakpoints for the first 10-15%, so say 3.5%, 6%, 9%, 12%, 20%.  Above 20% you can stretch them out - say 20,40,60,100.  

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1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

Maybe just adjust the calibration voltages?

idle rpm lockout value is for the amount above idle target when using closed loop or ignition idle control

Thinking about misfire stuff, did you change the pullup resistors on the cam sensors when moving from a G4+ to a G4X? And is it definitely running on all 6 and only dropping one occasionally or is it running on 5 consistently?

I did not make any changes there, no. I can't really tell what it is or isn't running on. I haven't tried the unplug coil method. I'll do so next

As an fyi I've done a smoke test as well. No leaks

1 hour ago, Adamw said:

Why is the trans controller requesting 2 & 3% AP when the engine is meant to be idling?  It should only be manipulating the APS signal when there is a torque modification required, so either there is something wrong with the trans controller setup or the APS wiring to it.  The APS sub/main signals that the ecu receives should match and should be zero at idle. 

As for idle settings; increase your actuator integral to about 0.05, set idle ign max clamp to 30° and min clamp to -5°, do a log from cold start up to fully warm and adjust your idle base position to match the actual throttle opening that is required to achieve the target RPM.  For example at the beginning of your log when ECT is 40° your base position is 8.7%, but it looks like it only needs about 5.5-6% to achieve your target rpm, at the end of the log when etc is 55°C, you need 5.5% throttle to idle but your base position table only has 4.5% commanded.  

Other tune suggestions:

Increase VVT RPM and ECT lockout so that it isn't active at idle or when the oil is cold.  Since your fuel table is referencing TPS, you ideally want the top row to reference normal warm idle TP - so for example when at normal operating temp, if it normally idles at 3.5% TP, then make the top row of your fuel table to be 3.5%TP.  Above that you want finer breakpoints for the first 10-15%, so say 3.5%, 6%, 9%, 12%, 20%.  Above 20% you can stretch them out - say 20,40,60,100.  

As far as the trans is concerned. I had a gentleman do my can setup for that so I'll consult with him on that! I'm sure it's a simple fix if that's the case.

 

As for your tune suggestions. - I'll do just that first thing in the morning. Thank you for that!

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So no more " misfires " which is great. I did try what you suggested @Adamw but I didn't really notice any change when adjust the idle base position. You can also see in the log ( added to the drive link as 5-24 ) , if you do actually use the pedal , idle starts to hold and then go into dashpot decay time.

I tried to upload a screenshot as well but that also goes over the file limit.. 

Looking at the log - the condition im talking about above - when i command 12.3% APS - idle status goes into " Hold - Throttle Open " where idle position is 5% . And then off that bit of APS - idle goes into Dashpot Hold time until its back at active. 

I may have something misconfigured here? This is probably blocking my effort to get the base position table sorted.

There's also a large discrepancy between bank 1 and bank 2 lambda now.with one bank being far richer that i'm not quite sure how to address..

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When you're using the pedal, the TPS isn't actually moving it looks like in that log.  Your APS main is over the threshold for idle control as well the entire log.  E-Throttle duty cycle never changes.

Your PWM frequency for the e-throttle is 8000Hz?  On the 2GR stuff I've got Aux 9 output was low, but that probably depends on how it is wired.

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Adding here that I tried to turn off idle ign control per a recommendation and similar results.

1 hour ago, koracing said:

When you're using the pedal, the TPS isn't actually moving it looks like in that log.  Your APS main is over the threshold for idle control as well the entire log.  E-Throttle duty cycle never changes.

Your PWM frequency for the e-throttle is 8000Hz?  On the 2GR stuff I've got Aux 9 output was low, but that probably depends on how it is wired.

I'm not sure what this should be as it was configured by a previous tuner. I'll compare with my old g4+ map to see - perhaps this is not appropriate. 

HOw should I address the APS main being over the threshold for idle control?


EDIT: just reviewed my old map and yes, the PWM freq is 8000hz on aux9.

Whats odd is the throttle did respond a few days ago so im not sure what i have misconfigured since then.

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Sorted out the TPS not responding.

Got idle target being hit and setting base position actually making a change.

But the idle is still kind of unstable and misfire-y again. This previously went away and I believe at the same time the lambda targets were being hit... but the idle weren't. So It seems i've flip flopped lol

Lambda 2 is a bit richer than Lambda 1 and is missing the target but I have CL Lambda correction off so im not too sure how to correct that. 

I've added two files ( log and map ) to the 5-24 folder.

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