ID 1050x Deadtimes / Fuel charge e85

[miker1017]

I am trying to get the fuel charge coeff to track properly but it overshoots to .85 when target is .9 and 1.1 while target is 1.05. It's all the way down on 0

I don't have dyno access now so I hold 2500rpm in neutral, the inj pulse is 1.8-2ms. Which is where they just start to become linear. Is this okay or do I need to put more load on the engine?

I have the flow rate set to 1050cc on e85 should I drop this? And using the deadtimes supplied by ID. I also selected the entire deadtime tables, went up and down a bit but not seeing much change. Does anyone have verified deadtimes I can use as a better starting point?

[Laminar]

Post up your tune.

What value are you using for fuel density?

What injector datasheet are you going off of? None of the 1050x datasheets actually list 1050cc as the flowrate at any pressure. Depending on the datasheet, it's more like 1066cc at 300kPa differential pressure.

How are you maintaining fuel pressure?

[miker1017]

I attached the tune and some pics. Fuel density should be good. I got the data sheet from ID's site and opened it with an xls viewer. When you type desired fuel pressure in the box it will give you the dead times for that flow rate, so I set it up on a 3D table for different pressures. For the fuel setup I'm running a radium 1:1 regulator, -6 lines, 525 walbro in a surge tank and DW micro to feed the surge tank. Posted pics of differential fuel pressure during a 4th gear pull. It goes from 43.5 to about 40.5

mike 10 1.pclx

[servicesoon]

I’m curious what led you to adjust this setting? My understanding is that the fuel charge coeff doesn’t usually have to be adjusted to get a good tune. The appropriate value is available in the help section when using the software.

[miker1017]

I know the default setting of 10 works well for gasoline but it needs to be tuned for e85 so the lambda tracks the target changes

[Adamw]

Charge cooling coef is a difficult one to tune as there are so many influences, especially with flex fuel. 

Some random related comments in no particular order:

• You really need to be tuning the multifuel settings on the "pure" multifuel which is E85 in your case.  Your map shows the ethanol content was only 72% when you saved it so that would mean you still have about 20% influence coming from the primary fuel settings. 
• Deadtimes and SPWA have a very big influence especially when at small PW's.  I have seen some other users end up with larger than expected VE numbers with the ID1050 before so Im suspicious with this particular injector that ID's quoted deadtimes arent quite right with Link injector drivers.   I believe we have acquired a range of ID injectors to test in-house but it will be a few weeks before I can get to head office to do that. 
• Ethanol has a significantly higher viscosity than petrol, so the injector flow rate with ethanol is usually significantly lower than the suppliers quoted flow rate.  In the absence of that data I usually just adjust the multifuel injector flowrate at medium load/medium RPM until my lambda matches target (with fuel table 2 turned off or the same as fuel table 1).
• In cases where I have had suspect injector deadtime data I have been able to use a similar "target step test" to experimentally determine both a deadtime and charge cooling coeff that gave me something that seemed realistic.  Be aware I might be quoting this observed deadtime/charge cooling error relationship back to front now as it was a while ago, but hopefully you will see a similar trend to figure it out yourself - I found when performing the lambda target step that an incorrect deadtime would give me a similar amount of over or undershoot depending on if I stepped richer or leaner, whereas with incorrect charge cooling I would get more over/undershoot in one direction than I would in the other.  So by watching the amount of lambda error while stepping target backwards and forwards and tweaking either deadtime or charge cooling one at a time, I eventually found a combo of both where my lambda would follow target reasonably well in both directions.  

[miker1017]

Understood. 

Is the differential fuel pressure dropping buy 3-4 psi during a pull normal? Or should I look into a better pump?

Also not sure if its related but I been having a problem with very rich cold starts lambda .85 to 9 when target is .95 and no matter what I do I can't get charge temp to compensate for the full range.

Is it actually possible for charge temp to compensate all the way from cold start to 130f IAT heat soak conditions? 

 

 

[servicesoon]

I’m an amateur tuner. I’ve fully tuned 1 vehicle. Made 384whp at 17psi on e85. I’m working on tuning my 2 and 3 vehicles. 

In my experience, a differential pressure variance of 3 to 4 psi is excellent! I assume you have Fuel System Type as FP sensor then the Link software will adjust pulse width as the differential pressure changes. 

[servicesoon]

Hm, why would target afr be accurate when warm but not when cold. Is this rich condition present for a few seconds, minutes or until the vehicle is fully warm? 

what does your post start hold time and warmup enrichment table look like? 

charge temp is usually based on MGP/MAP and engine rpm. It would not play a role whether the engine was cold or warm. I assume your IAT Mode is Off. 

Id encourage you to use the help feature in the software. It does a very good job explaining the impact for the different tables. 

[Laminar]

33 minutes ago, servicesoon said:

charge temp is usually based on MGP/MAP and engine rpm. It would not play a role whether the engine was cold or warm. I assume your IAT Mode is Off. 

But if the charge temp table wasn't tuned properly and relied too heavily on IAT to estimate actual charge temperature when the engine is cold, fuelling would be off.

Here's Mike's table:

Here's the Subaru V11 map:

And the K20 map:

Not sure where Mike's values came from, but the Link-tuned setups both have much more influence from ECT than Mike's, at least at the top of the table.

[miker1017]

My charge table values came from the help file but I tweaked them slightly. Even with the numbers higher around 80+ it does not seem to track properly on cold start 

 

@servicesoon I've gone through the help files multiple times and watched the HPA videos on charge temp. So I have a decent understanding of how it works, just not seeing the result I'd expect.

[miker1017]

Also should I turn off the 3d deadtime table and let the ecu do the work for the Y axis? Fuel system type is set to FP refence

[Adamw]

23 hours ago, miker1017 said:

Is the differential fuel pressure dropping buy 3-4 psi during a pull normal? Or should I look into a better pump?

It looks worse than that to me, it looks more like you have over 50psi during overrun and under 40psi at redline.  So possibly a reg or return flow issue? 

 

23 hours ago, miker1017 said:

Also not sure if its related but I been having a problem with very rich cold starts lambda .85 to 9 when target is .95 and no matter what I do I can't get charge temp to compensate for the full range.

Is it actually possible for charge temp to compensate all the way from cold start to 130f IAT heat soak conditions? 

Your charge temp numbers are already on the smaller side of typical so I dont this variation is caused by incorrect charge temp approximation.  Usually when I have seen the requirement for negative warmup enrichment when charge temp appears realistic it has been from incorrect deadtimes which means any fuel multipliers have been calibrated when applied to an incorrect proportion of the inj PW.  

 

1 hour ago, miker1017 said:

Also should I turn off the 3d deadtime table and let the ecu do the work for the Y axis? Fuel system type is set to FP refence

No, the fuel calculation can only take care of the change in injector flow rate due to pressure, the effect of voltage and pressure on the injector opening/closing time cant be modelled or estimated mathematically, you need a deadtime table to take care of those.    

[miker1017]

@Adamw The FPR is a brand new Radium rail mount regulator so that should be good. Same with the filter. All new -6 lines. The ethanol sensor is on the feed but has a splitter block so the flow should be fine. I think the problem is I have a DW low pressure lift pump in my main tank and walbro 535 in the surge tank. I'm replacing the main pump with a DW 420 tomorrow and will see if anything changes.

You are correct the differential fuel pressure goes from 50 on overrun and 43-40 during a pull. Do you have any example logs you can post to show what it would normally look like?

This is the log I took the screen shot from https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rXkpN9s6-D1b3sZj6BJqMXt2L9FVn75k/view?usp=drive_link . 4th gear pulls at 104:02

I know my multi fuel parameters are a little weird but I am looking to run One ethanol R, pump e85 and pump e10 gasoline. Can I do the ethanol tune on the race ethanol and expect good results when switching to pump e85? Would it make sense to have a 4d timing table for the One ethanol R so I can get MBT on that fuel as well? Not sure if that would work because I know the ethanol sensors have problems reading the race ethanol. And if I remember correctly it only shows 75% when using the race fuel which is what I get at the pump, so the ecu wouldn't know the difference unless I made a DI switch. I'm leaning toward 2 separate tunes, how would you do it?

Sorry for a ton of questions I have an event this weekend and am trying to get it cleaned up before then. Thank you for your time

[PhoSho]

On 10/1/2024 at 10:32 PM, Adamw said:

Deadtimes and SPWA have a very big influence especially when at small PW's.  I have seen some other users end up with larger than expected VE numbers with the ID1050 before so Im suspicious with this particular injector that ID's quoted deadtimes arent quite right with Link injector drivers.   I believe we have acquired a range of ID injectors to test in-house but it will be a few weeks before I can get to head office to do that. 

I don't want to hijack this thread, but I have this very same issue with abnormally high VEs on ID1050s and believe it is related to IDs data. I have discussed this with ID directly, but they swear their G4+ data is correct for the G4x. I would be extremely grateful for any G4x-specific data for these injectors.

[servicesoon]

On 10/2/2024 at 10:25 AM, Laminar said:

But if the charge temp table wasn't tuned properly and relied too heavily on IAT to estimate actual charge temperature when the engine is cold, fuelling would be off.

Here's Mike's table:

Here's the Subaru V11 map:

And the K20 map:

Not sure where Mike's values came from, but the Link-tuned setups both have much more influence from ECT than Mike's, at least at the top of the table.

You are correct, Charge Temp Aprox could impact cold start vs hot running motor. I do appreciate you mentioning.

To achieve the same AFR, the amount of fuel that would need to be added for an intake temp of 70F compared to 130F is about 3%. Mike was experiencing a different in target AFR during cold engine of 5 to 10%.

[mapper]

I found charge cooling is really one of the easiest parameter to tune. Just vary target lambda a lot. Like. 0.75 to 1.1 while checking also smaller steps, to get a good idea where it needs to be. On flexfuel do it first on petrol and once tuned on e85 or even better e100. 

Get sure your charge estimation and injector timing map has reasonable numbers in it. 

I usually start at 3000rpm steady state, optimize inj timing in that cell and cells next to it, then rougly charge temp coefficient, charge estimation and again double check charge coefficient. 

Finally you can do the same process again on another rpm/load combination for your confience.