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It wasnt the wideband controller.

After discussing with my tuner the only logical/plausible explanation we can come to is that the very first map sensor I bought was faulty/off compared to the subsequent 3 replacements I bought.

When tuned on the first one it was good but for whatever reason the next 3 are different.

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Since I last posted I have replaced the fuel pump, fuel filter, flow tested the injectors and tried a replacement ecu.

Also used multiple replacement map sensors incase one was faulty and its still not the same as it used to be.

Could I have damaged the wideband controller when I connected 12v to the 5v wire ? 

LD performance controller 12v, ground then 0-5v into ecu expansion loom 

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18 hours ago, Adamw said:

Yes this is what I was suggesting.  The data suggests the electronic sensor is outputting a voltage that is repeatable and reflects what a 150psi sensor would output.    

My gauge is accurate Tried another gauge today they both read 3 bar.

The only way my electronic sensor matches this is with the 300psi sensor calibration if I used 150PSI cal it shows 1.5 bar on the laptop.

Edit.

I had a look and found another 150psi Sensor that calibrates with the 150psi Cal and matches the 3 bar on the gauge again.

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58 minutes ago, koracing said:

Is it possible your mechanical gauge is incorrect?

It is possible yes however I think its unlikely as its hardly been used but I have a new one on its way to me to compare.

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4 hours ago, Adamw said:

It still looks like just a calibration with your fuel pressure to me.  Regardless of which log I check and at what load I check your data returns a repeatable sensor slope of about 225kpa/V.  That doesnt quite fit the commonly available sensor ranges  - a 100psi sensor for example would be about 172kpa/V or a 150psi sensor would be ~259kpa/V.  It seems to be quite repeatable suggesting the mechanical system is working correctly. There would be some error due to regulator gradient and transient delays so I would say it is most likely a 150Psi or 1000Kpa calibration.  

Here is a snip of your log with a math channel used to generate differential FP if it had a 150psi sensor calibration set (Yellow trace).  It looks far more realistic and a FP of 167kpa would fit your symptoms.  

I think The fuel pressure sensor I got sent is 300psi as with the 150psi calibration it read half what I set fuel pressure to on a mechanical gauge.

My dyno log is on a different sensor from yesterday just to be clear. Log and tune from yesterday is where Im at now.

I altered sensor calibration to match gauge, 300psi calibration and the values in PClink doubled.

I have always set fuel pressure by testing pump output and adjusting the regulator to 3 bar. It has always been tuned this way.

I have other logs it driving like this with CL +/-4%.

The gauge I use for setting pressure maybe gets used 3 or 4 times a year maximum but I will get another to compare.

My tune is traditional mode I did not think the ecu would be looking at the fuel pressure other than it being a parameter for logging ?

 

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1 hour ago, Pete_89t2 said:

^Absolutely. Could be a faulty fuel pump, wiring associated with the pump, fuel pressure regulator, clogged fuel filter or anything else applicable to your fuel system that could impact fuel pressure. Your differential fuel pressure should be relatively flat & constant - no crazy swings far from your base fuel pressure setting

Ok thanks, I have something to go off now.

Its all a couple thousand miles old and branded stuff AEM reg DW300 pump will give it a check over.

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2 hours ago, Slim47 said:

I am sure that you have a problem with tuning and / and assembling the car and not the ECU. 

At least you can see that the fuel supply looks very strange. Your rail pressure is not calibrated, it does not have normal absolute values nor does it have a stable differential pressure. I don't think it's possible to adjust it with such fuel system operation.

When you achieve 300 kPa differential pressure under any load with a spread of 10-20 kPa, then you can talk about something.

It is clear that in the current situation, the ECU will supply the wrong amount of fuel. Even if you completely reconfigure the fuel table for current pressure surges, all this will “float away” with the first wind

It was fully tuned very recently and was running and driving great, fuel pressure was set checked and set same as it always has been at the weekend.

I will double check vaccum line to regulator.

Edit.

Vaccum line is good 

Edit 2.

Could a dying or faulty fuel pump be causing what you called a strange fuel supply ?

looking at older logs the fuel pressure and differential pressure look different from todays log.

I can only apologise for jumping to conclusions about ecu this very much felt like an ecu problem based on passed experience  but looking at logs I do agree differential fuel pressure does not look right compared to when it was running good.

The differential fuel pressure is much more flat and consistent in the older logs like from the dyno earlier in the thread.

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Drove to work this morning and was it idling at 17AFR had to add another 15% to the master fuel value.

Even still was going lean and closed loop corrections are all over the place compared to logs from a couple weeks ago.

2206.llgx 2606 drive home.llgx

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10 hours ago, Adamw said:

There is something up with your MAP sensor also, it takes 2 seconds to creep back to atmosphere after the engine has stopped. 

would that suggest something is wrong with the map sensor then ? it was brand new from speedfactory racing less than a week ago and done zero miles since.

Edit

Yes the brand new map sensor was at fault I changed to a different 4 bar sensor I had and car seems to start and run on old master fuel value.

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On 6/24/2023 at 12:47 PM, Adamw said:

Unlikely if thats all that happened, the 5V output is designed to take reverse battery and +60V load dump. But your volt meter will confirm whether the 5V output is correct or not.   

You can contact tech support if you really wish for the ecu to be inspected, but as yet I haven't seen anything in your logs or descriptions that suggests there may be anything wrong with it.  If the 5V regulator or a sensor ground etc was damaged then MAP, BAP, temps etc would all read wrong too, not just the fuel press.  Testing an ecu to find a "could be anything" issue with no suspicious IO or other clues could soak up many hours of a technicians time, which will likely be chargeable if nothing is found or if something is found that was caused by user error.  So my suggestion is to eliminate as much as you can before exploring that option.  It is a whole lot easier to find an issue when the ecu is still connected to the car, sensors and other systems that allow it to exhibit the issue.  

The fuel pressure sensor calibration problem has been fixed, the last 2 sensors I got were supposed to be 150psi but they calibrate to the gauge using the 300psi calibration. 

I reluctantly tried adding some fuel to the master fuel value and it did seem to start stronger then would hunt for a bit then die.

could my idle ignition control have anything to do with this ? I recently enabled it but never had problems staring before.

I have attached logs and tune from today.

Just to explain again so I am 100% clear this was a fully running and driving car tuned less than 1 month ago that now does not run and appears to need more fuel for reasons I dont understand.

I am not tuning around the problem with a new master fuel value as a long term solution as that is absurd in my opinion. 

 

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11 minutes ago, Adamw said:

Assuming the sensor supply is 5V and the voltage displayed in PC link matches what a voltmeter shows, then I dont see how the ecu could make the sensor output the incorrect voltage for the applied pressure.  

could I have damaged the 5v supply when I connected the 12V wire or damaged anything else ?

Bottom line is my car does not run on a previously proven calibration after this happened.

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42 minutes ago, Adamw said:

You can check the sensor voltage matches what the ecu says with a volt meter.  I dont see any clues that suggest anything is wrong with the ecu so far.  

voltage on the signal wire matches voltage on the laptop  during fuel pump test but pressure does not match the gauge.

The recommended sensor calibration was slightly different from the one I was using so I changed it and it now reads half what the gauge does so no further forward.

so you think its unlikely I damaged the ecu by connecting the 12v and 5v wires ?

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6 hours ago, Adamw said:

The ecu is commanding the same PW so assuming the injectors have the correct voltage and same fuel pressure then you should have the same quantity of fuel injected.  

Did you ever confirm the old fuel pressure sensor that was fitted for the original tune was reading correct?

Yes sensor on original tune was correct and pressure was set at 3bar as per data for injectors.

I have since tried 2 direct replacement sensors after connecting a switched 12v to the 5v signal wire and they both read 1 bar less than the gauge does so I think something is up with ECU as its unlikely to get 2 sensors with same fault.

What is procedure for repair in the UK ?

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My new fuel pressure sensor was faulty After checking with a gauge fuel pressure was closer to 4 bar.

I have reset to 3 bar on gauge and confirmed new sensor is 1 bar out.

Will check injectors for 12v then what next ?

Im not really wanting to tune around the problem as it ran on this calibration before.

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4 hours ago, Adamw said:

Is the fuel pressure sensor you replaced exactly the same as the other?  Have you got a gauge to confirm the calibration against?  

The log shows the ecu is commanding similar pulse widths but it is running leaner even now with higher fuel pressure than it ever had so there appears to be less fuel making it in for some reason.  Incorrect fuel pressure sensor cal could explain that.  It would pay to check you have full battery voltage on the 12V side of the injector also. 

Below is your old dyno log (pink traces) overlayed with your most recent (coloured traces).  RPM, MAP, fuel table value, target lambda, IAT and batt voltage are all very similar.  The most recent log is a cold start so has 52% post start enrichment active which is the reason for the 0.73 Vs 0.49 effective PW.  It's hard to compare when you dont know how the lambda used to look during a cold start, but assuming it used to cold start ok, and now all fuel calculation inputs are the same except the fuel pressure is 30kpa higher you would expect it to be richer not leaner.  So the fuel press is the most suspicious bit of data to me.  

I will check sensor with gauge to confirm and check for 12v at injectors.

do you think I will need to send it back to link ?

Used to cold start great.

3 hours ago, koracing said:

That lambda reading sure looks suspicious...  The up down it's doing does not seem right to me.  Your VE values in your table are super low in general so if the dead time is a ways off from what the injector actually needs it could be commanding a lot less fuel than it needed as well - which I am guessing is why Adam suggested checking the voltage at the injector.  

Im not tuned in VE mode those are not VE values.

Lambda is up and down because it has not warmed up yet.

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31 minutes ago, koracing said:

No master reset other than going through and updating firmware - but that doesn't really reset anything as much as make sure any fixes that have happened that link is aware of are accounted for.  Save and save often so you can always go back. 

Do you have datalogs of when it was running good for comparison? 

You've changed some things so those need to be checked.  Have you performed coil and injector tests?  It sounded like it still didn't start with the 3 bar fuel - but you're saying now it does run? 

Also I saw in your tune you had meth injection.  Is it possible you dumped a bunch of meth into the motor?  I've had the ecu freak out drop comms and stop functioning all together mid pull on boost.  Because the meth system was possible to be active and the output on the ecu grounded when the ecu shut off it poured meth into the intercooler piping.  That made it run like doodoo for a while after the ecu was power cycled and reset on the side of the road with the throttle held wide open to clear out the meth.

Yeah tested the coils and injectors, It did fire on the 3 bar fuel pressure today but it did not run for long before it died.

I will attach a data log from the dyno to this post with the tune from the dyno session.

I also have several other logs and older tunes from doing part throttle tuning on the road after the dyno.

I Dont think its meth related due to the failsafe I have in place and that its not been driven since this fault developed.

dyno.llgx dyno meth map 400.pclx

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14 minutes ago, koracing said:

"How exactly is a rainbow made? How exactly does a sun set? How exactly does a posi-trac rear-end on a Plymouth work? It just does." - Fred Ward in Joe Dirt 2

Your 12v to 5v makes me wonder if you shouldn't send the Link back in to be tested and verified.  There may still be something else going on. 

Alternative - it is what it is right now and tune it for what it is.  Likely the whole thing needs to be rescaled and all sensor calibrations rechecked. 

Maybe you just need to keep raising fuel pressure to get it where you want it or modify the master fuel until it idles like it did and see how it drives once that's taken care of.

sending it back is an option but would like to avoid if possible.

Is there a factory/master reset option I could try before uploading my old tune ?

I have raised fuel pressure to the 3 bar It was tuned on and it starts better but still does not run like it used to.

would also be nice to Know why fuel pressure dropped one bar.

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46 minutes ago, Amrit Sidhu said:

Try master fuel trim at 10 ms and see if it wants to crank. It'll need to be tuned eventually in fuel table.

Its already been tuned. I need to understand why its not working anymore.

I have been driving around on this tune for a while with zero problems until last weekend and now it does not work.

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12 hours ago, Adamw said:

Fix your fuel pressure issue and double your master fuel, then give me a new log if it then doesnt run for longer

base fuel pressure was indeed 2 bar so I adjusted the regulator back to 3 bar.

Its more eager to start now but still dies.

I dont understand how it be can tuned on a master fuel value and be fine to drive then not be correct at a later date on the same value.

2206log.llgx

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5 hours ago, Adamw said:

You've got very little fuel going in, effective PW is only ~0.5ms and you have less than 200kpa fuel pressure.  Your master fuel set to 6ms seems very low - what size injectors does it have?

Id1050X injectors.

fuel pressure is set around 3/3.5 bar.

b18c engine.

Started and ran fine before I had the problems with the sensors.

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replacement map sensor fitted and calibrated still wont run like it used to.

It fires then dies pretty quickly.

pretty stuck at this point as not sure what could have changed to cause this.

TPS seems to be fine I have a replacement can swap to if required.

I think its worth mentioning the car ran fine on this file or one very similar to it last week. Its only since I have had the sensor problems mentioned in this post that I have had this problem.

 

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16 minutes ago, koracing said:

Your map sensor appears to have also been affected.  It's showing 4kpa absolute when your barometric pressure is 100kpa.   They should match with key on engine off.

I just tried to calibrate map sensor and it failed do you think its possible It has been damaged ?

would certainly explain the problem

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This is after battery on charge for a bit.

 

[crank no start, now starts then dies.]

Done some work over weekend and now got a crank no start problem please find attached log and tune.

I accidentally connected a 12v wire to the 5v ecu wire and this damaged the fuel and oil pressure sensors but everything else still seems to work just not starting.

Was fine all last week until I finished wiring EGT amplifier and changed to a new meth pressure sensor.

If anyone can seen something in the logs please let me know, jump pack didnt make a difference either but got the battery on charge now anyway.

thanks

Jed

 

[HC96X Ignition cut Cause ?]

Hi there was wondering if someone could look at this log and file to see what caused the ignition cut/lean spike at the end of the full throttle pull about 15 minutes in ?

I cant see anything obvious.

Any help would be appreciated.

thanks

Jed