gunnerthesnowman
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Preview: Re: Altitude compensation
If you have your fuel table spanned off MGP then you get barometric correction all the time, OK THAT ANSWERS THAT
not just off boost. There is no distinction between on and off boost, it is just a different MAP pressure.
As the ECU is very configurable, there are many options for how the fuel calculation and mapping is configured. It is very hard to explain in general as it depends on how you configure the ECU as to how barometric correction is applied.
Here are some points to note:
- When the fuel equation is on Load = MAP, there is NO barometric correction applied by the fuel equation.
- Having your fuel table spanned off MGP is what gives you barometric correction as MGP is a function of barometric pressure.
- If MGP is used to span the fuel table and your engine is tuned properly then you get barometric correction everywhere.
Please ask specific questions about your exact application or give me examples to explain and I will try answer them.
So in short for almost all applications use:
Fuel equation Load=MAP
Fuel table Y axis = MGP--- AND IF RUNNING THE OPEN LOOP TABLE IF HAS TO BE SPANNED OFF MPG AS WELL
Ignition table Y axis = MAP OR YOU COULD SPANNED IT OF MPG FOR NO BAROMETRIC CORRECTION
You say to ask specific question which i did / have , that when Ray said he found out that he did not know that spanning the open loop table Y axis = MAP with the fuel equation load=MAP , fuel table Y axis= MGP --- that i would not have barometric correction
He said he found out that the Open loop Y axis has to be MGP------ OK that done
But he also said with this set up i would only have barometric correction on off boost ----- this did not make any cents to me ----that why i asked more specific question .
Which i hope you have finally answered ---Thank you
Ray also said to have the timeing Y axis table spanned MAP for no baro correction and MGP for Baro correction
Now you say
Map for baro correction and MGP for no baro correction
No wonder why i am getting confused
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TTT
Just trying to understand how this works , which is correct
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Seem to be some miss understanding on how this works!!!
As an example for an NA engine:Ignition table is typically spanned off MAP. The reason for this is that MGP is 0 when the MAP is at atmospheric pressure. So, if you had an ignition table spanned off MGP, and the WOT row had 20 degrees, then 20 degrees would be used at WOT (0 MGP) under any barometric conditions. Using MAP instead means that the ignition numbers selected from the table will alter with barometric pressure..
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by rayhall » Thu May 26, 2011 11:42 pm
The only thing selecting MGP for ignition will be move the timing based on baro no idea what your ignition timing map looks like the best option is to just leave it on MAP. Normaly you do not need to change the timing.
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Fuel is the opposite. You want the same row to be selected at WOT under any atmospheric pressure as VE does not change with atmospheric pressure. You get your fuel barometric correction due to the fact that the MAP value (used in the fuel equation) has changed.
So in short for almost all applications use:
Fuel equation Load=MAP
Fuel table Y axis = MGP
Ignition table Y axis = MAP
For more complex situations such as multi throttle and big cam engines then that is slightly different.
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As an example for an NA engine:
Ignition table is typically spanned off MAP. The reason for this is that MGP is 0 when the MAP is at atmospheric pressure. So, if you had an ignition table spanned off MGP, and the WOT row had 20 degrees, then 20 degrees would be used at WOT (0 MGP) under any barometric conditions. Using MAP instead means that the ignition numbers selected from the table will alter with barometric pressure.
Fuel is the opposite. You want the same row to be selected at WOT under any atmospheric pressure as VE does not change with atmospheric pressure. You get your fuel barometric correction due to the fact that the MAP value (used in the fuel equation) has changed.So in short for almost all applications use:
Fuel equation Load=MAP
Fuel table Y axis = MGP
Ignition table Y axis = MAP
For more complex situations such as multi throttle and big cam engines then that is slightly different.
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Report this postReply with quoteRe: Altitude compensation
by rayhall » Thu May 12, 2011 2:07 pm
The Vipec will automatically adjust for baro pressures when not on boost.
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***So this fuel barometic correction due to the MAP value changing ( used in the fuel equation ) Is this correction only for off boost as Ray says Or would it be working thoughout the whole fuel map , i would think it would effect the whole map
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All Vipec ECU have an internal barometric sensor. When you have MGP as the axis of the fuel table the ECU automatically adjusts for changes in barometric pressure. You do not have to do anything as far as tuning or extra tables.
Ray.
Hi , could someone explain what/how the vipec does the compensating for barometric change , ray says it does this automatically , what does it do ,he also says it only does this off boost , just trying to understand this unit better .
Thanks
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No, I think he is asking ECU logging to overwrite old data automatically when the memory is full so that the most recent data will always be there to download. MoTec has this feature.
OK , thanks ,
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Hello,
I just noticed that ECU logger does not write in loop mode. So I am not able to know how was filled the engine tuned by me for last minutes because log memory was full before. AEM for example writes last 3-7 minutes depending on parameters and speed recording
Dima
Not shore what you are saying ,But it sounds like to me you are saying , if you are running in close loop lambda mode that the unit will not data log!!!
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Hi.
I suspect you are running an old version of firmware.
Suggest going to the latest as the set up is much better and simpler to understand.
Mode should be set to Auto.
Defaults of
FTrim Limit 15%
ECT lockout 80c
Timer Lockout 30s
RPM low 500
RPM high 4000
Map 70kPa
Gain 2
Thanks Simon , i will up date my firmware
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TTT , Can vipec support help me out with this , if you need more info just ask.
Thanks
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Can anyone help me with a good starting setup for the Closed loop control Gain AFR Error table and Closed Loop Control Rate (Hz) table.
Thank you.
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Ya , stupit why they would do it that way , mine is set for .6% so 6% TPS movement and the Accel enrichment kicks in.
ClaudiomxgFuel menu
Accel Enrichment
Deadband Accel - 0.2% of TP is equal to 2%.
Watch this leads to error in this calibration.
Sorry for the poor english
Augusto
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I tried running with high enrichment, high enough to cause a 10:1 to appear on my wideband and kill any hope of power (but still deliver the lean spot just before the enrichment registers. I've also tried running with minimum enrichment and the same thing occurs. I'm really at a loss here.
As for the idea of injector timing, I'm not sure how to attack that one because I don't know what I need to know to make that work properly. I'm using the default of 340deg and it has seemed to work fine, but I'm not sure if that should be altered. I've been so daring as to change it by 40deg +- and it didn't make a difference.
I will note however that my SC300 with a PowerFC had this same issue and getting the "Injector Delay" settings correct seemed to resolve this issue more than any other thing. Is there an equivalent setting on the Vi-PEC? I tried the dead time settings but with no luck either.
Yes , just decreasing the Accel clamp table was not enough , i also had to decrease the Accel Hold and increase the Accel Decay , the hesitation i had was from just off idle to about 1/2 TPS, any time i move the TPS i had a hesitation ,it showed as a high (lean) AFR then went low (rich) , i had this problem for two years tuning with a Vipec dealer/tuner and he could not get it to work right , he was tuning main fuel/ingition tables making up 3D,4D,5D tables , The standalone ECU is only as good as the tuner , and there is a lot of bad so called TUNERS out there , i can show you the bills to proof it.
Tuning a standalone 1L turbocharge sled for 400+HP and still have good low end/off boost throttle response is not easy
You say this happen at a cruise , so your TPS should be well of of its stop , may be something different in your case.
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I've got a CA18 turbo with rx8 440cc injectors and am experiencing the following:
At cruise with AFR's being held at a desired 14.7 if I encounter anything that changes the load like a small incline or a small change of the TPS, my AFR's will go lean to around 15.7 which is enough to cause a slight hesitation. So after adjusting the accel enrichment settings for quite some time I discovered that no matter how much enrichment I added when I add the slightest bit of throttle input, my AFR's always go lean for a moment before fattening up. I'm not sure if it's injector response or what that could be causing this. Any ideas?
I had this same problem with my turbo sled , i though the same thing as you , have to increase enrichment , the problem ended up being to much enrichment which gave a miss fire which showed up as a high ( lean ) AFR , i took some enrichment out and no more problem AFR stays good , and sled works nuts.
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Thanks for the help.
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Thank you for your reply , yes i though about doing it this way , but since may main fuel map table is done in RPM/MGP and the warm-up map table is ECT/TPS it would be hard to know what area in the main map to pull the fuel , i would have to retune the whole main map again , that why i decided to use a 4D map tabled at ECT/TPS , much simpler . But if there is a dedicated ECT fuel correction table ( as vi-pec suport says there is ) that i can pull fuel , i would be more then happy to use it( if i can find it ) and leave the 4D map table for something eles.
I dont know for sure if it is a good or suitable solution, but you can rise the warm up table by say 10% (and lean entire fuel table by 10%) which means it will read 10% fuel enrichment where you actually had zero enrichment. This way you can lower 10% from operating temperature in the warm up table.I believe your 4D fuel table example should work as well.
Please chime in here Vi-PEC staff if this will come in conflict with some other stuff or if it should be done in another way.
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Thank you , that what i though , just wanted to check.
What dedicated ECT fuel correction table are you talking about , if your talking about the WARM-UP ENRICHMENT table it will not let you put a - number in , If there is a different table just dedicated for ECT can you tell me where it is!
Thank you
Hi vi-pec suport , since you reply of this dedicated ECT fuel correction table , i have been unable to find such a table , can you point me to the right spot!
Thanks
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Are you trying to make a cell value - ve.
A cell value can only go to 0 (no multiplication), i've never tried to use a -ve value and just tried it and 0 is as far as it goes.
Having a 0 in a cell means the parameter is controlled by the base fuel number only plus any IAT compensation.
The area that you are trying to lean off, does it have 0 in that cell.
If not what does it have.
Sorry for the questions, just trying to get a grip on what you wish to achieve.
My base map is tuned for a ECT of 40-45degrees , my warm-up enrichment comes off at 40degree , from 40degrees to 100 degrees this table is all 0,s i need to compensate the main map ( pull fuel ) when the ECT rises , and as you are saying i can not put a minus # in the warm-up enrichment table, so i was useing the 4D table set up as TPS-(o-100% )ECT-( 45-90degrees ) to pull fuel.
But ashesmen (vipec support ) said i do not need to use the 4D map , there is a dedicated fuel correction table i should be using , just trying to find out what he is talking about.
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With the Warm up enrichment table open simply double click on the cell you wish to change, type in the new value and press enter.
Hit F4 to save to ECU and F2 to save to the map in your PC.
If it is the axis values you are trying to change then right click on an axis and select axis set up.
Change to your preferred axis eg TPS and RPM.
Enter the values you wish to have for your axis.
Tryed this , will not take a minus number , it sayes the number has to between 0-255 , either i am missing something or putting in (-) numbers in an enrichment map can not be done , and i do not know of any other dedicated ECT fuel correction table , just the 4D and 5D!
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There is no need to set up a 4D table. There is a dedicated ECT fuel correction table there, just use that. Set the axis to TPS if you need. Put zero where you want no correcxtion (ie the normal temperature the engine runs at) and positive numbers at temperatures below that, negative numbers at temperatures above that. Your numbers should tend towards zero correction as the throttle opens.
The numbers on the edges of the table are in effect if you are operating outside the table. So, if you want zero correction when operating off the edge of a table, you need a row/column with zero in it on that edge of the table.
Thank you , that what i though , just wanted to check.
What dedicated ECT fuel correction table are you talking about , if your talking about the WARM-UP ENRICHMENT table it will not let you put a - number in , If there is a different table just dedicated for ECT can you tell me where it is!
Thank you
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Thats funny , that what the wife tells me all the time .
With your race car , did you have to pull fuel from the whole map due to the increase in ECT , or only on the lower end? how much did you pull ? how did you set you 4D map up .
Any info would be good.
From what i see on my sled , as the ECT rises it only affects the low end response , so i was going to set up a 4D fuel map with ECT and TPS. set to ON allways
I do have one ? , in such tables as 4D ,5D , IAT correction , if you are pulling -5 at 50% TPS and that is the end of the scale ( no 60% TPS )is the -5 still in affect from 50% TPS to 100% TPS , and if so , if i did add a 60% TPS row with all 0,s in it this would stop any correction from this table !
Thanks
Could someone from vipec support help with this !
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M is a type error.
Do as I say and u will have no problems at all.
Thats funny , that what the wife tells me all the time .
With your race car , did you have to pull fuel from the whole map due to the increase in ECT , or only on the lower end? how much did you pull ? how did you set you 4D map up .
Any info would be good.
From what i see on my sled , as the ECT rises it only affects the low end response , so i was going to set up a 4D fuel map with ECT and TPS. set to ON allways
I do have one ? , in such tables as 4D ,5D , IAT correction , if you are pulling -5 at 50% TPS and that is the end of the scale ( no 60% TPS )is the -5 still in affect from 50% TPS to 100% TPS , and if so , if i did add a 60% TPS row with all 0,s in it this would stop any correction from this table !
Thanks
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I gave you the answer and solution. What is wrong with that, except you don't want to try?!
It works 100%m, as I have the same problem on no thermostat race cars.
What do you mean 100%m!
Yes i understand what you are saying , thank you for your help , i may end up doing just what you suggested , would be the easyest thing for me to do now that i have a map already build with a ECT of 40-45degrees .
so , you said you have had the same problem , IAT ( senser ) would stay the same temp. , but ECT starts to rise and the map starts going rich!
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The help file is excellent. If there is an area that you think can be improved we are happy to look at this.
Maybe you can help me out on this .
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I am directing this to the original poster. He asked when the manual would be corrected so I was hoping he could point me to the exact pages that were incorrect...
I think he was baseing his ? on what Ray was saying , i know i was/have used the help link pages , as i thought having this help support was one of the GOOD thing that i got when i purchase the vi-pec unit!, but now i don,t know .
Altitude compensation
in ViPEC V Series
Posted
So to start over again to try and make this clear for me , to get barometric correction on my V-88 on my turbo charged sled i would set it up this way .
Fuel equation Load = MAP
Fuel table Y axis = MGP
Open loop Y axis =MGP
Ignition table Y axis = map ( for barometric correction ) OR MGP ( for no barometric correction )
Thank you .