loca5790

What happens when the relay shuts down a millisecond after the ecu does? I thought there was fly back diodes in the aux circuits

The solenoid is not off. When the relay switches on the solenoid is energized and held at 12v the ground signal also floats high from the aux output. I’ve directly measured it. The ecu is grounding out the control circuit to activate it. This is why I hinted to a simple allocation to allow it to be power controlled via the output selection on a high side driver would correct this issue in my post. The solenoid is milliamps and well within capability of controlling via ecu Look at the diagram in the help menu and the diagram here. When the ignition is turned on the relay for the boost I control is energized and thus 12volts is directly applied to the solenoid.

Yea it’s not active but the power is and it floats high so it denergizes on power down. The activation control has nothing to do with how it’s powered up or down but ground control. The problem is the voltage spike on key down as the solenoids magnetic field collapses.

I set mine up to only enable above 1500 rpm and 50% tps or when I turn launch mode active and a timer associated with it. That way it’s never on when I turn car off.

Nope it’s the Mac valve 100%. You can check to reassure yourself.

I'd put money on the mac valve just ran through this issue and it was wired correctly. Unplug it and the issue should go away. It is backfeeding into the aux circuit. It should audibly click at the lower frequencies. I'm guessing you will need to take the boost solenoid off of the ignition key on switch and move it to it's own relay triggered by enabled conditions in the link to ensure it is not powering down at the same time the link is. I also think that the state hold would work if you put a delay on the link to shut down after the boost solenoid de-energized. The issue is that the magnetic field collapse of the solenoid is enough to spike the ecu through the aux circuit on key down. I bet if you unplugged all your injectors the voltage spike would have no where to go and the issue would also not be present. It spikes solenoids that then creates magnetic fields that collapse and induces power.

It won't let me post another picture but at the lower bound of the sensor the link and the factory ecu drift further apart. At the decel the link was at 4 Kpa but the factory ecu was at 16 kPa. During driving at max boost factory logged 146 kPa and link 140 kPa. This lines up with the idle numbers and all other driving numbers. Idle link is 52ish kPa and factory was around 60 kPa. The 6-8 kPa delta holds true under all conditions other than the one you pointed out. In order to scale my MAP axis to account for this error when running my axis for load via MAP was shifted by 7 kPa across the board from my original tune to my new tunes once I identified this offset. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-12592525?seid=srese1&gclid=Cj0KCQiA8dH-BRD_ARIsAC24umYEJaykPE9MeNTgaAA0MQCHaB6SZCODECRjy2RWrfQqlXy97rvNvL8aAr9UEALw_wcB is a link to the map sensor. Factory calibration is -11.25 offset and 312.5 linear. The way to calculate this is as follows: 312.5 is the 5V number and -11.25 is the axis cross point at 0. Volts Map 0 -11.25 0.5 21.125 1 53.5 1.5 85.875 2 118.25 2.5 150.625 3 183 3.5 215.375 4 247.75 4.5 280.125 5 312.5 This is the curve generated off that method. If you reference my table you can see it is shifted on the volt axis. I also have a couple kPa error in there because the factory curve actually started at -11.25, I will redo that table for austerity measures. Old table + New Table - I still may have to scale this table.... will check... This table was created by calculating y=mx+b then solving for the limitation of no decimal places allowed in axis divisions in the link. The table was broken into even steps rounded to the nearest whole number and then solved for x because decimals places could be used. 9 was used because it was the first positive number in the table. Anyway, the shifting of the VE map to correlate with the discrepancy in the map reading between factory and the link should have been acceptable for trial purposes, but this again depends on how the model is calculating VE and brings us back to how does it work. I am investigating bringing my MAP in across CAN and using that as a scalar on my Fuel/Ign tables but would have to be ANV table. Would love to see CAN variable be able to be assigned to hard coded axis such as TPS, IAT, CLT... I think you understand the desire. Ill try again with the updated axis and rescaling all my fuel/ign tables. This curve is to demonstrate the error between the tables. The X represents my first table and the triangle is the new table created. The triangle is the factory curve. I have to be honest here, bit by Holley's genius once again. I used their curve labeled as that map sensor part number in their software figuring how could one mess that up............ wellllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll it is wrong. My mistake, thanks Adam... hopeful this fixes it.

Adam!! Astute observation, the BAP and the MAP would not match. In order to calibrate them I had to offset my map curve by 6 kPa or about 1 PSI which matches exactly how much off it is when driving. I had to scale my spark and fuel tables to account for this. Here on the cold start on Traditional tune you can see my MAP is reading 98 kPa on factory ECU. It is broke out to both ECU's btw. On the link you can see it is about the same and I had to scale the MAP to get it to the same curve. Here is started and idling at 126F ECT. Both sensors are within 5-10F between Link and factory one is at back of engine and one is at front. (4 min and 6 seconds from start) Here is the link at about 1 psi difference.... I'm assuming this is due to a slight grounding difference between the factory ecu and the link.... not sure the cause but I had to offset the tables. Ill go into how I addressed that difference in my maps here in a second.

87 and pin 30 don't matter which direction they are wired. 86 and 85... one should be to 12v ignition source and the other ground. I'm assuming you are using the ecu to ground control the relays. How and what is wired into the ecu for inputs/outputs?

Thanks KO, I already did all th e flex fuel/ignition and 3D dual startup tables for flex in traditional. I would like to move to modeled but I tried again today and you can see attached. The issue is if I have to fake data to make it work I don't trust what is going on in the background that I cannot see so unfortunately I will not use it. The Modeled is the tune used for the log modeled. Trad 5 was the drive today and it was within 10% up to 7 pounds of boost and 6k rpm. Got a huge portion of the map varying RPM and Load. Modeled LS3 Base.llg mike andy - Axis Correct - Ign Correct - Map Offset - Modeled Base Start LS3 - Transient - Ign1.pclr mike andy - Axis Correct - Cold STart Fuel 2 - Ign Correct - Map Offset - Trad 5 - Transient - Ign1.pclr

Hey Ko and Adam thanks for the feedback!!! That injection setup was an artifact I was messing with the table to see how it worked and saved it. It was 8.0 and .01 when ran but they are high imp injectors. The car is idling on traditional right now at 1.2ish ms. Actually my traditional map after 3 stabs at it is within about 10% for all the operating ranges I've been through. Displacement is 100% a 6.2. This is the crate motor that was purchased. https://www.chevrolet.com/performance-parts/crate-engines/lsx/lsx-376-b15 The injectors were from a good friend who buys batches of injectors and has an ASNU bench and matches/flows all of my injectors. Direct data from the injectors that were brand new installed. After I had this issue, I removed them and took them to another friend who has a flow bench who also verified this information. I use these injectors on alot of cars. To further elaborate on this issue now that I have the vehicle running on traditional and running well. I reverted back for try 2 today. Attached is attempt from today.. NO log just watched live. VE in idle region was 50ish percent compared to where it idled traditional map. Airflow the same, tps the same and spark the same. The car was so lean it would not run. Tried throwing more in it and got nothing so I gave up and reverted back. *worth a mention I checked after I warmed the car up on traditional.* Interesting thing to note... I will investigate this more tomorrow, but ... I had this car running previously on the factory ecu. I have since changed the cam to a slightly larger cam with 8 degrees less LSA and about 10 degrees more duration, new heads and moved the MAF to a 4 inch diameter pipe from a 5 inch. The MAF is located in a long straight section like it was previously. I cannot get 6D length distance from a bend but it is a solid 10+ inches form a bend in the same location in the pipe. I scaled my old MAF by 70% so a 30% reduction because there was a 36% reduction in cross-sectional area. I use base MAF curves I build for each sensor type and scale like this and am always within 10% so I errored high here as I typically do especially with knowing the changes. Let's say that the cam/heads changed idle by 10% which we can do and say I'm off by about 15%......... high but doable. Where I am going with this is that my factory ecu was calculating .28 g/cyl. If I was off 15% that puts the high error at .322 g/cyl. The link was 15% rich and was calculating .336 g/cyl... if you remove the 15% here is the magic.... my factory ecu was spot on because it was .28 g/cyl. Where I am going with this is that it took a whopping 82% VE to do this. If we pull 15% off that 82% that puts us at 70% range VE at idle. The factory ecu would be idling in the 50% range in the same condition which results in a roughly 40% error in the VE tables between the two. Some background, my base VE table works in 95% of cars within about 10% on factory ecus. I have used these same injectors with the same data, on the same fuel pressure and it idled in the 50% range VE. For reference I attached the traditional map as well. Please note the bottom of the traditional map I fall in what I've seen as the non-linear range of the injector which typically ends up being about 1 ms or lower with it getting nasty and reallying showing it's head around .4 ms. I compensated for it by fudging the numbers high. Like I said I will take a look at it again, but it is taking a significant more VE than expected and what I have seen required on other setups. Is there some calculation that is being applied to try and scale or "normalize" it? CTSv -Cold Start Fuel 1 - Ign Correct - Map Offset - Trad 3 - Transient - Ign1.pclr CTSV - Ign Correct - Map Offset - Modeled - Transient - Ign1.pclr To be clear I will get a log tomorrow on the modelled again and get it idling and reving. Didn't mess with a lot because I was trying to rule everything else out but since it is running well on traditional I think we are pretty stable.

Anyone take a look?

Yea, I did try that as well Matt. No success I just gave up and wired the relay to be switched by an rpm enable and/or a 2step enable. Haven't gotten a timer setup yet for that but plan on it. 100% without a doubt was wired per the manual. Adam, the issue is no with pin 85. I tried about 50 different things over 2 weeks before I broke down per a friend's request who had said he saw the same issues that isn't isolated to one ECU.

G4+ Xtreme CTSv - Multi-FUel Off - Cold start 1 - Lambda 2 AND 1 off - Modeled Not GOod - Good Rev and Drive.pclrWideband half time.llg So apologize if the log isn't good, firs time logging and still trying to figure it out. Need to do some more reading. Anyway.... also apologize my Lambda sensor crapped the bed.... so I installed my daytona wego IV sensor kit in the tail pipe. It fell out on a rev so you will see that.... then I went for a short drive and it set a Fault Code and I kept trying to clear it and check wiring at end of the log and it apparently took a crap too. The tune of the drive it also attached. You can see it is a very high modeled percent and I turned multi-fuel off too as you suggested.

Hey Adam, This is the third relay its been on. Factory relay first, relay with built in resistor second, normal relay (current) and then I diode isolated that relay per the above diagram on the coil side of it. If I unplug aux4 pin and watch voltage on it. It immediately goes to 0 on key off. That is with the FFS installed. All of my last round of diagnostics before doing what I outlined above was with the FFS unplugged to completely eliminate it from the equation. I 100% get where you are coming from and I would have agreed with you if I didn't just spend 2 weeks diagnosing this and rewiring the car 15 different ways. I changed relays from factory fuse box first because the factory always has constant power on pin 30 and 86 and ground controls 85. I was told this was the issue so I rewired that. The second relay I was told if it as not a normal relay and had a diode/resistor in it it could cause these issues so I removed it. The last relay was void of both but still did it so I tried diode isolating it to no avail. When the relay potentially "sticks" perhaps microwelds on three separate relays now, there is no voltage at pin 85 as seen by a wire probing the lead from the back side. I also tried previously using the link Ign relay feature to power all relay coils on key up that also did not work.

Hey Adam, Glad I could catch you here, hope all is well. 100% is wired per the above schematic. When I disconnect the FFS no changes. If I pull the relay the back feed stops. If I disconnect only Aux 4 to the ecu the back feeding stops. Meaning if it is in the middle of back-feeding remove aux 4 pin stops it. I can test this by having the aux 4 pin ran through a single inline duetsch connector I was using for diagnostic purposes. After the connection was broken I could check and there was no voltage at that pin. I have a work around and have implemented it. Relatively clean fix just don't believe it should have been necessary. The fix entails removing the boost solenoid 12v power from the flex fuel and moving it to it's own relay. I have this relay trigger signal coming from the Link setup on GP Output to enable above 1500 rpm and greater than 50% TPS. The logic here is that the boost control is not required under these conditions and ignition should not be turned off above 1500 rpm. This was a clean fix and no longer has any backfeeding issues. I'm guessing what is happening is on shutdown the mac valve is de-energized resulting in a large voltage spike caused by the collapse of the magnetic field that the flyback diode is not capable of removing... not an expert in electronics as to why this may occur. It is somehow self-sustaining as the injectors also create voltage spikes as they backfeed. This is logical because as you unplug injectors the frequency changes, it decreases as the number of injectors plugged in drops from 8 to eventually 0. If this is the case eventually the energy would be low enough to stop the cycle. I could put my o-scope on it to watch what's occurring at the mac valve/injectors during this condition. I'm assuming there is no snubber diode across the mac valve. This may have also fixed it from high to low at the valve, but it is extremely difficult to get to and do that in my situation. I'd rather not continue to try and determine what's occurring and use the method I am. The mac valve current draw during operation is extremely low and could be driven by a high side driver on the ECU and this would also address the issue ensuring the mac valve does not have power during key off.

Hey Adam, Correct, the fuel map shown is my base map. I did not save the map that it took to idle it right because it made 0 sense and I was trying to figure it out. I'll grab an idle log and attach the tune associated with that log tonight. About to pull it out of the garage.... or attempt to.

Hello All, hope everyone is well. I'm scratching my head here on this one. I've gone through all the settings I can check and the car wants to idle at around 100% VE and it won't stay running above 3000 rpm without maxing the VE out. Injectors are bosch 2200s. I have flow data dynamic and static matching with them. I used ID2000 data and compared the link (done at 4bar) vs their standard at 3 bar vs my data for my injectors and they are close, my dead times are little higher than ID which sure that doesn't help buy not enough to correct what I'm seeing. Injectors have been taken out and reverified although they are brand new. MAP has been verified it is piggybacked with my factory E67 ecu, it did take some slight scaling to get it to sync or map calibrate and match-up with the factory ecu. Intake temps match factory ecu and ECT matches factory (these are there own stand alone thermistors for each ECU). Fuel pressure was checked with a mechanical gauge and verified. Please see attached tune. Would love to hear feedback!!! Trying not to ditch modeled VE. Next thing is to put additional widebands in the exhaust to verify. Albeit the car does smell rich at idle with a global stoich it has a decent cam with adequate overlap. Traditionally on other systems I would shut off correction below 12-1500 rpm and tune it by sound. Add fuel until rpm starts dropping and then remove fuel until rpm starts dropping to find my bounds and bias it towards the rich side. Checking the wideband doing this same thing.... the values are logical. G4+ Xtreme CTSv - Modeled VE Issues.pclr

Let me start with saying whenever the vehicle power is shut down (Key Off) and the boost solenoid is connected to Aux 4 the injectors start machining gunning. See wiring diagram below for current configuration. I have tried on other Aux channels with no success. Checking Aux 4 hovers around 10-11V assuming because of the flyback diodes internally and on key off it grounds. All.... bear with me for a second as this is a kind of long winded discussion as to what I have done and where I am at. I have tried multiple relays with quenching diodes, built in resistors and normal relays... no avail. I have tried adding and ensuring grounds are adequate no change. I relay isolated the link instead of running it on the key on signal (that signal is already relayed by the factory BCM). I ran diodes inline with the mac valve to try and stop it. I added essentially a pull-up resistor on Aux4 to try and not float it low on the link. I ran the mac valve ground (aux4) line relayed from pin 87 to 30 with the trigger being the key on power same source as everything else. I tried isolating the solenoid on it's own relay. All of this did nothing. I believe the simplest thing here is to allow the driver be high side (cannot). Anyone else have any ideas or ran into similar issues? I have transistors on the way as another effort. Originally this was completely piggybacked into my factory car with factory fuse box. The whole thing is now standalone simply because of this issue and nothing has fixed it. Testing the Test PWM the boost solenoid does work. Injectors pulse until the boost solenoid (single wire into the ecu) is unplugged. This issue does not show up with a noid light... only when the load of the injectors are plugged in. Here is the diode isolating of the relay.