Trig1&2 error at higher load/ecu ignores cam target

[lemmy01]

Trig1 signal is good and have no errors except i give abruptly some throttle.

The offset i checked with the timing light but i not be able to check the delay (have no helper on hand to rev the engine)

Here is a picture when it happens:

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/8199/trigerror.png

What could be the reason for that?

Wrong delay or to high arming threshold at that rpm range?

Or could be somthing different the cause?

Its a Toyota 2grfe and i set the trigger setup as listet in the helpfile.

[Dave Kriedeman]

The Ignition delay under the timing calibration tab will not normally cause trigger errors or cause your symptoms,unless the timing is drifting a substantial amount from commanded value when the engine is revved.

The trigger arming voltage at that given rpm point may cause these issues and also the sensor air gap can be a culprit at times.

Try logging the Trigger 1 voltage agaqinst RPM to look for voltage changes as the rpm is increased, however a magnetic reluctor normally generates more voltage the higher the RPM.

Does this issue only occur at the same engine speed or does it happen at other speeds when tipping in on the throttle.

Looking at your Air Fuel ratio in the log, it is showing a rapid lean off in relation to TPS and MAP, finally topping out at 22:1.

Does the engine misfire at all.

Trying to establish if the lean out is misfiring, causing the lean reading or the A/F ratio is to lean.

[lemmy01]

Here is the logfile from where i made the screenshoot look at the last 1/3 where is a spike at tps.

https://rapidshare.com/files/1696063880/round2.llg

[Dave Kriedeman]

I have looked at the log, however there doesnt appear to have AFR in there to reference the data against.

Does the engine, lean pop or sneeze out the intake when you hit the throttle.

Looking at the MAP trace the MAP Kpa doesnt really indicate that it is lean popping out the intake, 80 Kpa is probably about normal considering you have given the throttle a quick hit.

The reason i ask about the lean backfire out the intake is that this can cause a trigger error, the engine tends to kick backwards slightly and generate a signal out of sequence or partial retrigger of the sensor.

If you trim in some accelerator enrichment, do you see any changes.

[lemmy01]

The lean condition is because the ecu make a fuelcut. You can see this in my screenshoot (Fuelcut 100%)

Is this the normal behavor if there are trigger failures? The engine only missfires when i abruptly lift off the throttle .

There should be target AFR in the log i opend it and it shows me afr-target and wideband.

wideband is at an volt 7.

Threre is no pop or backfiring at that time. it feels like someone had switch the key to off.

I have acceleration enrichment setup and it look's its enough to get no extreme leanout's that backfires

[Dave Kriedeman]

I dont know why but in the log i can only see RPM,MAP and TPS under LOGGER 1,

Logger 2 has scatter plots and histograms.

Logger 1 doesnt appear to have Wideband or Target table selected in the parameters list.

However after i downloaded the log, i was prompted with an error telling me the file was not available to me.

Refering to your round 2 log.

[Dave Kriedeman]

Looking at your first screen shot (trigger error log), the parameter list shows that the REV LIMITER is ACTIVE

Look at the Injector duty cycle and actual pulse width, they both have values..

Injector Duty is around 23%

Injector Pulse Width is around 11 mS

Fuel cut is on 100%

However the REV LIMITER is ACTIVE.

Are you using fuel cut for Rev limiting,

What are your settings under the LIMITER TABS.

[lemmy01]

Here is the mapfile

ralfmr2vers4.zip

[Dave Kriedeman]

I will have a look through and see if i can find anything.

Have you disconnected the VVT System.

I see that it is partially setup in the software, under RUNTIME VALUES LIST VVT you have multiple VVT Trigger Errors.

I have also noticed in IAT FUEL CORRECTIONS, IAT Temps above 30 deg, you are removing 3 to 4.5 % of fuel.

Have you tuned this engine with IAT and ECT Trims turned ON or OFF.

Try lowering the Trigger 1 Arming voltage at the 3000 rpm point,

it is set to 3 at 3000 rpm and 2.5 at 2000 rpm,

Your issue is at 2500-2600 rpm roughly looking at your screen shot and at that RPM your trigger 1 arming voltage is 2.6.

Drop the 3000 setting to 2.5,

Turn off IAT FUEL CORRECTION and see if the issue is the same.

[Dave Kriedeman]

Just curious,

Why do you have your E-Throttle Target Table 1 setup that way.

[lemmy01]

I have checked the logfile and the 4 trig2 errors happens at the same point as the trig1 errors.

I dont noticed this before. Is it possible that the trig1 error is the reason for the trig2 errors or is it a Indication for something else is wrong as the arming threshold?

Try download the logfile again and add the paramater you need with rightclick->properties->addgroup

IAT and ECT trims turned on.

I temporary setup the e-throttle table that way because its make it easyer to touch the low loadpoints in the fueltable.

My food is no precision instrument

Thanks for help Dave

[lemmy01]

When i switch of vvt-i (cam-test or pull the fuse for the solenoids) i get no trigger errors.

Here 2 log's one with and one without vvti.

There you could see that there are no trigger failures without the solenoids aktivated.

https://rapidshare.com/files/4024680296/trigfehler.llg

https://rapidshare.com/files/4197717969/ohnevvti.llg

[lemmy01]

It seems so that the trigger errors only happens if the inlet cam is advanced more than 25°.

What do you suggest? Should i give it a try to reduce the 30° values in the inlet-target table to 25°???

Please help!

[lemmy01]

I tried limit the inlet to 25 and it help a little.

I get the errors later yet in the range from 3500-4200 rpm if i in the higher load cells.

But i see some strange behavor of the ecu in a log file.

The ecu give a inlet and exh target that have nothing to do with the settings in the target-table.

See by yourself:

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/254/vvtifehler.jpg

Try the url its a big screenshot 1900x1200 resolution

[trd87t]

not to bring this thread off topic but are you using a windows skin to make it look like an Apple interface or you genually using a Mac?

[Dave Kriedeman]

Hi mate, sorry i have been working away,out of town.

I had another look at your tune file the other day,

I noticed under Digital Inputs 1 through to 4 are selected as your camshaft position sensors.

Digital Input 1 Inlet LH CAM,

You have Pullup Resistor set to OFF,

Active Edge FALLING.

Digital Inputs 2,3 and 4 seem correct, with Pullup Resistor ON and ACTIVE EDGE FALLING.

Also Under Triggers, i noticed

TRIGGER 2 VVTi you have Selected OFF,

Should this not be set to

Cam Type = INLET LH

Offset = 230.

Also Trigger 2 you have set as Trigger 2 Edge = RISING

But you also have PULLUP = ON.

It appears the RISING EDGE is CORRECT, however PULLUP should be OFF, for a RISING EDGE

I am unfamiliar with this engine.

Does it have a timing belt or chain setup.

Is the static valve timing correct,

I am talking mechanically here, ALL TIMING MARKS CORRECT in relation to camshafts and crankshaft.

Does the timing belt or chain have any slack in it, worn guide components or tensioner etc.

I would try changing the above values i have suggested and probably check the Physical valve timing for issues as mentioned above if the problems still exist.

[lemmy01]

Hi Dave,

trig2 and dig1 have the same sensor.I split the wire.

So i disabled the pullup in dig1.

I could change trig2 pullup to off and dig1 to on but dont know if this makes things better.

The settings are same as in helpfile Toyota 2gr-fe section.

But im a little confused about why the Inlet/LH sensor have under trigger2 settings raising and under DI-settings falling?

The cam has 3 tooth.

First i tried as simon says and wire the inlet/LH sensor only to trig2 and have the vvti settings under trig2 enabled.

http://forum.vi-pec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1123

The engine has a chain and only 10k miles so there should be no slack.

Have you noticed in this screenshot that there is 25° in the target table and the ecu give a target of 18.7? Exh is the same. You must scroll a little its a big resolution.

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/254/vvtifehler.jpg

Im baffled.

[Dave Kriedeman]

I did notice the target values for the inlet and exhaust cams dont make sense compared to your target table.

This i cant give you an answer for, strange.

Maybe one of the ViPEC engineers can help out with that issue.

In overview of the Trigger errors etc,

It is obvious something is not happy.

There is obviously something not quite correct in your software setup for the triggers/inputs or

the way that the sensors/inputs are physically terminated.

This is proven by the fact that if you disable the VVT setup, you no longer get trigger errors.

I would try setting the software parameters as suggested, in regards to trigger edges FALLING, PULLUPS ON, etc.

EG: TRIGGER 2, having a rising edge and the PULLUP on will obviously alter the value the ECU is calibrating from.

See if there is any change to the Trigger Errors, EG getting less errors,more errors or different errors.

Have you tried to leave the VVT active and set the target tables to flat 0 everywhere and monitor if the values for the inlet and exhaust cams stay at 0 or they actually show the offset we are seeing in the datalogs.

This is a fairly complex set of circumstances.

However these types of problems can be sorted, the secret is to target one specific area of the potential problem and attack it from every angle, before moving to the next phase of diagnosis.

EG: Target the software settings first,

Double check your settings as i am sure you have done, try as i have suggested and set the trigger edges and pullups as they should be set.

After making the relavent changes and you see no change in behaviour of the trigger errors etc, then move to the next phase of the diagnosis,

The PHYSICAL setup, how the sensors are terminated.

You mentioned you are sharing the Trigger 2 signal,

have you checked that both inputs see the same exact voltage.

If you leave one of the shared inputs disconnected and measure the voltage, connect the second input up and see if the behaviour of the voltage changes.

I am sure you have done most of these things.

However if you are like me and get to the point of being stressed over trying to resolve an issue, i tend to start to short track things and sometimes take software settings and physiacl setups for granted and overlook the basics, which normally is where the issue is found.

It would be handy if we could find someone who has setup a ViPEC on this same engine to find out how they went with there setup.

Anyway i will continue to help out where i can

[lemmy01]

I have found this waveform in the toyota manual for that engine.

Im not sure but it seems that vv1 and vv2 have different endge'.

But im unsure.

Dave i will try your settings if i get some time tomorrow.

[Dave Kriedeman]

Unfortunately that is a very basic wave form to work with.

It would be good if the diagram was referenced to crankshaft degrees and we could see exactly the degree refrencing of the camshaft teeth edges in relation to TDC etc.

You can see the TDC tooth signal in the top line Ne Signal (Crank Trigger), but it is anyones guess what the VV1 and VV2 edges are in relationship to it.

VV1 and VV2 have different edge timing events but are both Positive Edge Triggered.

[lemmy01]

The online help shows rising for trigger2 and falling for vvt-sensors.

I have checked the sparepart list of the engine and the 4 camsensors have the same partNr.

So i guess the setting for trigger2 have to be falling too.

At my understand its impossible that one sensor have to different endges so one setting have to be wrong.

Must i check the main-offset again if i switch the trigger2 to falling?

I hope the solution is so simple.

[Dave Kriedeman]

NORMALLY, when using Hall Effect type sensors the RISING (POSITIVE) EDGE is used for the triggering edge.

The sensor produces a positive voltage when the vane is in the sensor and 0 volts when the vane is away from the sensor.

Some FORD engines use the NEGATIVE edge of the Hall Effect input as the trigger.

I can understand what you are saying in regards to the 4 sensors having the same part number, so theoretically they should all use the same trigger edge.

Once again this is something that cant really be taken for granted.

We need to confirm these setting with the ViPEC Engineers.

[lemmy01]

I have spend the LH-Sensor's some very heavy shielded wires to get save that noise is not my problem.

Wired the inlet/lh Sensor again only to trigg2 and get again a error under the VVt-Runtime for the Inlet/LH sensor.

Changed edge in trigger2 to falling and it worked.Seem's so that this not changed my main Offset.

I think if the engine is idle at 750rpm i noticed a large amount oft ignition shifting.

I switch the trigg2 endge with engine running.

I have a cam-offset of 51,9 with that.(for LH/Inlet).

Make a testdrive without and with Cam-Solonoids enabled later and see if things changed.

But at leased this free's me one dig input.

[lemmy01]

It seems that the trigger errors are gone

Could not pull really hard because the streets are weet but i think they are gone.

So the setting for the 2gr-fe should be updated in the helpfile: trigger2 Inlet/LH falling edge 52° offset

[Dave Kriedeman]

Thats great news, well done.