Advice - 1st start up

[Ashy_T2]

Hello, I'm after some advice on the best way to fire up an fresh install on a newly built engine.

I've fitted an ATOMX to a Renault 5 turbo running 450cc injectors.

I'm happy with my wiring, all tests on injectors and ignition are working, sensors calibrated and static timing set. Whilst cranking the engine over it tries to fire but only for a few rotations, i've been increasing the master fuel but it hasn't fired up. 

Rather than just guess at settings and burn the starter motor out I thought I would ask if anyone has any tips on the best way to work through the process of a first fire up? which screen do you look at and what values are you looking for? Also if anyone could have a look over my map (attached) and advise if they can see anything that would prevent it running that would be great.

Theres a short video attached of it cranking.

 

T2-Rev1.pclx

[Adamw]

There is not usually anything special required for start up of something new.  Usually as long as the trigger is set right and the timing is somewhere close it will start or at least attempt to run - even when fuel settings are a long way off.  

When you get an initial cough then die similar to your video shows that is often an indication of not enough fuel.  Not always though.  For your 450cc injectors, I would expect the master fuel to be more like 15-25ms, did you try it that high? 

A quick test I often do to narrow down what to concentrate on is to try a squirt of starter fluid or if not available dribble some known fresh petrol into the manifold somehow, if it then runs for longer or gives more promising signs of life then it would confirm the issue is fuel related.  If it makes no difference then I move on to confirming spark, airflow, compression etc.  

A PC log of it cranking would be useful to confirm the trigger is now happy.  I assume by the comment "static timing set", this means you are checking with a timing light while cranking?  

What does it have for an ignition coil?  What size is the R5 engine? 

 

[Ashy_T2]

Hi Adam,

So its a 1500cc engine running a Renault Clio Sport (172/182) Coil pack, Image below.

Yes I've confirmed the timing is correct. As there are no OE timing marks I've found TDC on cylinder 1 with a dial test indicator and marked the position on the timing case and timing wheel then strobed it with a gun adjusting the timing until the marks lined up (with the timing locked to 0 degrees).

I have increased the fuel to 25ms tonight and it almost sounded like it might start but then dropped back off to not wanting to go. I think it may be battery related, it was on charge today so had plenty of power early but then as i adjusted the master fuel and kept trying it worsened.

I did take a log - see attached - can you read anything into it? This was taken towards the end when the battery wasn't as strong.

if you can see something im missing please advise.

Also, is there a way to see the actual injector pulse width whilst cranking? I know its a % applied to the Master fuel from the fuel map and other factors but would be good to see what the actual pulse width is in ms whilst cranking.

Cheers Niall

 

Trigger Scope - 2024-05-15 10;20;15 pm.llgx

[Adamw]

Ok, that is a dumb coil, do you have an ignitor in between the ecu and coil?

[Ashy_T2]

No I don’t.

are you certain it’s a dumb coil? I’ve been running this exact coil on my other car with a DTA ECU for years. it’s a 2.0 F4R turbo (Renault Clio engine) making 400 bhp.

 

[Adamw]

Yes it is a dumb coil.  Im pretty sure most of the DTA's - at least the older ones I have used - had an internal coil driver(s) that could be turned on via software, so it can drive a dumb coil directly.

My ign coil catalog shows a primary resistance of 0.7ohm, whereas it would state "NA" or "--" for a smart coil as primary resistance cant be measured.

The common VW golf one might be a good option to swap in rather than add an ignitor and change wiring.  They are a 4 post wasted spark coil with internal ignitor, good powerful spark and cheap as chips.  I think they have the same 4mm terminal so leads will probably fit too.  A common part number is 032905106b

[Ashy_T2]

OK, really appreciate the help, I'll get a new coil ordered! Hopefully that's my issue, I'll report back.

Thanks again.

To confirm, One of these?

https://www.eurocarparts.com/search/41344029s?gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4s-P7LyRhgMVEpNQBh2WdgREEAQYCCABEgI7CfD_BwE

 

 

[Adamw]

Yes that one is photographed upside down compared to how I normally see them for whatever reason, but that is the coil im talking about.  But I would go for a name brand like Bosch, NGK, Beru, Vemu or similar, that one is not a brand I recognise and I have seen some pretty poor quality junk from many of those generic black label brands.  Also, be careful that the one you go for does actually show the Aluminium heatsink part included (this is the ignitor), I have seen some companies selling the same coil with same part number but it is missing the ignitor. 

I dont know any of these companies, but just for reference, here are a couple of Bosch ones for about the same money:   https://www.autodoc.co.uk/bosch/757956

https://www.sparepartstore24.co.uk/757956-bosch

 

[Ashy_T2]

thanks, I've ordered a bosch one as linked!

[Ashy_T2]

Hi Adam, The Bosch Coil has arrived, just waiting for the electrical plug to turn up before giving it a try.

I've found few sites listing the wiring info as below:

1) Input #1
2) +12v IGN
3) Input #2
4) Ground

Can you confirm with your information that this is correct? As I'm running wasted spark using two ignition outs so I assume ign 1 to Input #1 and ign2 to input #2 would work.

Also some sites mention pull up resistors, is anything like this required with the Link ECU?

Finally will the trigger arming threshold still be OK as i changed it as advised in my other thread. 

 

Thanks Ashy.

[Adamw]

2 hours ago, Ashy_T2 said:

1) Input #1
2) +12v IGN
3) Input #2
4) Ground

Can you confirm with your information that this is correct? As I'm running wasted spark using two ignition outs so I assume ign 1 to Input #1 and ign2 to input #2 would work.

Correct.  The pin numbers are usually moulded into the top of the housing on the coil - and be aware that some of the aftermarket cheap plugs are labelled backwards.  To confirm, pic below is looking into the housing on the coil, pin 4 is leftmost with the coil towers pointing up. The ground should be connected to the cyl head.  

The HT posts are usually labelled A/B/C/D at the base.  Pin 1 (ecu ign 1) controls Post A&D so connect these to cyl 1&4, Pin 2 (ecu ign 2) controls post B&C so these go to cyl 2&3.  This is assuming the common 4cyl firing order 1342. 

2 hours ago, Ashy_T2 said:

Also some sites mention pull up resistors, is anything like this required with the Link ECU?

No pullup needed, connect Ecu Ign 1 & 2 direct to the coil pin 1 & 3.  Make sure spark edge is set to falling in the software (normally is, but just incase you changed it earlier).

 

2 hours ago, Ashy_T2 said:

Finally will the trigger arming threshold still be OK as i changed it as advised in my other thread. 

Ign coil shouldnt have any effect on the trigger so I would assume so.  Will need to see the map and a new triggerscope if it doesnt start with the new coil.  Note the trigger offset will likely be out a bit as the old coil would have been sparking before the dwell period instead of after but I expect it will prob still be close enough to show some signs of life.  

[Ashy_T2]

Perfect, thanks again!