Triggers proplem, running wild

[Guest |596|]

Well i bought this wonderful vipec ecu, and had my dealer setting it up and making a wire harness, when i turned the key, it wouldnt start up.

I called the dealer throuth the phone we were troubleshooting, i connected the pc to the vipec and went online, first i runned a few tests, the coilpack was fine, the injectors was fine, then i turned the key again, and what i saw in the vipec was that the engine speed was between 1.600 and 11.000 rpm on the starter.

I checked the harness, and seemd to be good, then i tested the sensor on another engine, and it was just running smoothly.

So anyone got any suggestion?

The engine is a m20b25 from an late bmw e30 straight six, im trying to run the original triggerin system witch is missing tooth, 60 - 2.

Settings:

Trigger mode: multitooth / missing

sync pulse: no

sync levle: none

trigger priority: trig 1

[Guest |596|]

Have noone ever seen this before?

[rayhall]

Have noone ever seen this before?

Sorry for the late reply, I was sleeping.

More then likely the -ve and +ve wires on the crank sensor are around the wrong way. Look at the crank trigger teeth. Is the missing tooth area a double tooth or missing teeth. Quite a few missing tooth trigger wheels have slots rather then raised teeth, and the -ve and +ve have to be swapped.

While you are doing this check, email me your map so I can check the settings. [email protected]

Ray.

[Guest |596|]

Hey ray, i was troubleshooting along with my dealer here in norway, wich set up this engine magnement, all that is checkecd, was removing pin 7 and 8 and tried to swap them, i ohm´d them and evrything was just fine.

My dealer would look deeper into it so it is returned, i will tell him to send me the map, and then i can email you the map, he had never seen this before.

Thank you

[Guest Hic]

I saw the same thing a few times.

Some BMW's had some strange sensor on the crank, it wasn't vr or hall. Since I changed to later model sensor (E46), which is hall effect, everything worked perfectly. Make sure you don't have that sensor, there is some documentation on the net and megasquirt forum if I am correct.

Second reason I saw, was bad battery and bad sparkplugs. I cannot explain, but as soon I changed the plugs, everything was right.

Maybe this can help you.

[bsh]

Hic, you are correct. I have never seen it myself, but I have heard it from a BMW guy that there are a "strange" crank sensor on some cars. If I remember correctly, it is a Siemens sensor. Replacing the sensor will cure it.

[Guest |209|]

I sold him the ECU.

Hic: the Siemens sensor is only on later engines(m52). This is the old 12 valve sohc engine (m20).

Sparks plugs havent been tested, but it should not make that a big difference. If there had been some trigger issues under load/rpm then the spark plugs are more likely. But strange things do happen. So this will be checked also.

As Xceer said we/he tried to swap the polarity, tried to increase/decrease the arming threshold. When we increased the threshold it just went dead. 0,5v lower and the signal were all over the place. Filtering level up/down- nothing.

Ohmed the trigger wires and the sensor. Everything seems to be ok.

I have the exact same trigger setup on my own car and it works without any issues, and its not that sensible on the settings.. Therefore I just asked him to return it so I can just test it in my own car.

Eivind

[Guest |596|]

That is what i love with vipec, the support seems to be really great, it is very nice to take it back to sort the problem.

I apperciate this help very much, if there are some norwegian peopels wondering on buying vipec, i can reccoman els, i could never done the troubleshooting without his support

[Guest |596|]

Well, then my dealer are done with troubleshooting, there was nothing wrong, he then tested the harness and ecu, with my sensor, he got the correct engine speed.

does anyone have a clue on what i can check? i was checking the teeth on the trigger wheel, no damage to any of them, i thought the wheel was paintet, but when i turned on the light i saw it wasnt paintet, the bracket seems fine :s

also i noticed the engine speed in my instrument also running wild :s im really confused right now :/

[rayhall]

To find the problem you have to stop basing your settings on what others have used, and take a look at your engine triggers and wiring.

1. Look at the crank trigger teeth. Is the missing tooth area a double tooth or missing teeth. Do not ask someone, have a look yourself.

2. Borrow or buy a dual channel oscilloscope and capture the crank and cam signals. Connect the probes on the scope the same way around as you have the sensors wired.

3. Tell me what the teeth on the crank are like, and email me your map and the scope traces. [email protected]

I did ask for you to do this before. I can only help when you listen to me.

Ray.

[Guest |596|]

ok ray, the vipec is on its way again, i will send you the map then, and come back with the info you asked for

thank you

[Guest |596|]

i sent you my map ray.

if others also want to have look here it is

http://www.mediafire.com/?0kmj2nyktnm

[rayhall]

Many problems with your map and wiring.

Some thing is wrong with the manifold pressure. You have 22% TPS with 900 rpm and 99 kpa manifold pressure. This is not possible.

1. Check TPS is 0% with the throttle closed. If it is not then do the TPS calibrate.

2. Check the manifold pressure is 100 kpa with the engine not running. If it is not then do the map sensor calibration. If it is a long way out then you have the wrong map sensor selected.

Both ECT and IAT sensors are reading 100 deg and showing errors. This tells me you have problems with wiring to the sensors. More then likely the TPS is also wired wrong.

With the engine running the voltage is only 10 volts. Something is wrong with the charging system.

Other problems.

1. Trigger 1 filter level is set to 2. Must be set to 1 (low)

2. Ignition delay has not been set.

When you install a ECU, the very first thing you must do before trying to start the engine, is confirm every thing makes sense. This is TPS, MAP, ECT, IAT, etc... To ignore these will mean you will have many problems and waste a lot of time. I recommend you take the car to a dealer, so they can find and fix the wiring problems and calibrate all the settings for you.

Ray

[Guest |596|]

Evrything have been disconnected ray, i had just the trigger wired in to eliminate all the things that could cause the noise.

10 volts is when im turning the engine througth the starter, i have never mannaged to get it to start.

The loom and the ecu have been tested in another car with the exactly same settings.

Tried the trigger filtering on 2 from start it was set to one.

but you are right, seems like i have to take it to a shop to get it done

[Guest |596|]

So noone here know what can cause the trigger problems? i get 12v were im supposed to and evrything seems ok, but still i get those problems >.< arrgh

recorded my desktop

[bsh]

I have seen similiar issues in a Volvo with 60-2. Switching the polarity of the crank sensor cured it. You can easily try it and see if it helps.

It would also be nice to see a scope trace of the crank signal while cranking if it does not help switching polarity.

[Guest |596|]

it have been tried, tried to set threshold to 0.2v were can get my hand on such a scope? my sensor, my loom and my ecu works flawless in another car :s

[rayhall]

o noone here know what can cause the trigger problems?

All the time. They are caused by any of the following.

1. Crank trigger has slots not raised teeth.

2. Crank sensor +ve and -ve around the wrong way.

3. Cam trigger has more then one tooth.

4. Cam sensor +ve and -ve around the wrong way.

5. Crank Filter level set to 2 when it should be 1

6. Cam Filter level too low

7. Crank and cam thresholds incorrect

8. Crank or cam signals are being shared with original ECU.

If you will not take the car to a dealer, then do as I ask and get me scope traces of the crank and cam signals. Do this while cranking with and without the spark plugs in the engine. Connect the scope probes the same way around as you have the sensors wired.

Ray.

[Guest |596|]

All the time. They are caused by any of the following.

1. Crank trigger has slots not raised teeth.

2. Crank sensor +ve and -ve around the wrong way.

3. Cam trigger has more then one tooth.

4. Cam sensor +ve and -ve around the wrong way.

5. Crank Filter level set to 2 when it should be 1

6. Cam Filter level too low

7. Crank and cam thresholds incorrect

8. Crank or cam signals are being shared with original ECU.

If you will not take the car to a dealer, then do as I ask and get me scope traces of the crank and cam signals. Do this while cranking with and without the spark plugs in the engine. Connect the scope probes the same way around as you have the sensors wired.

Ray.

by now i can eliminate 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 tried both, 6 and 8

as i got no cam trigger only crank,

tried diffrent thresholds, how do i know what is the correct settings? and why is it so important to scope the signal? i will try do borrow a scope, if i cant find any i will buy one, would a cheap one do the job? or do i need a 1000$ one? any suggestions on a good oscilloscope?

tried to switch polarity.

[Guest |596|]

Seems like it is solved now, i moved the sensor 0.5 mm away from the trigger wheel, i dont know why that helped me but it did :s thank you anyway, today im hoping to get the shit to start

thanks for support ray and forum members