Struggling to Start

[barrowg]

Hi All,

I'm having a few issues starting my engine, and really can't work out what is going wrong. Never had it running and only recently swapped to a Link Ecu so quite new to the whole ecu bit, but have taken the sample 1UZFE map provided for atom, and adapted for the storm to run the 8 injectors. I want to cover off anything electrical related before delving in mechanically as this is obviously easier to change. I am getting engine rpms of 100-150 when cranking, it seems all the injectors are firing, and recognising triggers, so unsure when I am going wrong. Not sure I am getting proper fuel, as sparks are never wet, so could be a fuel pressure issue, but defo getting spark, as it tries to start when using Aero Start spray for one crank. Any ideas? Map and trigger scope attached.

Trigger Scope - 2024-05-2 9;08;46 pm.llgx V3 Trig Test.pclx

[Adamw]

The main issue is your MAP sensor isn't working, it is showing 4.8Kpa, it should show the same as BAP with the engine not running (about 100Kpa).  You will be getting barely any fuel injected with the MAP at 5% of what it should be.  

Other issues that need sorting:

1. TPS is showing 100%, appears to be not connected.
2. ECT and IAT are both not connected.
3. Injector flow rate is set to 500cc.  Is that correct?  If you have stock injectors they would be more like 250cc.
4. Change crank tooth count to 12 and reduce the arming threshold as per example below.  

 

 

[barrowg]

Hi Adam,

 

thanks for the reply. I currently haven’t got a map sensor in there at the moment. I’m planning to turbo the engine once I Know it starts, so could this be causing the issue? 
 

I’ll look at the other issues. I definitely have the TPS connected, but there could be a wiring issue in there somewhere. Is there a way to check this?

I did just have everything apart to check the injectors weren’t blocked and flush them through, so maybe that could be issue showing? 
 

I will adjust the map for the tooth count and injector size, as I am definitely running stock injectors. 

[Adamw]

If you load the default 1366x768 layout then you will have most relevant data displayed on the main config page.  Example below.  You can see the raw voltage from the TPS and MAP in the Analog list in the middle (marked in pink rectangle) and the calibrated values on the right (marked in pink rectangle).

TPS voltage should move smoothly over a range of about 3-4V as you move the throttle from open to closed. And it needs to be calibrated so it reads 0% with the throttle closed and 100% with it fully open.  

You will need a working MAP sensor to run the engine with this tune.  To run it without a MAP sensor it would need significant configuration changes and you wont be able to use the idle valve.

You will also need IAT and ECT sensors connected and working.  

 

TPS wiring will likely match this 4AGE one:

 

[barrowg]

10 hours ago, Adamw said:

If you load the default 1366x768 layout then you will have most relevant data displayed on the main config page.  Example below.  You can see the raw voltage from the TPS and MAP in the Analog list in the middle (marked in pink rectangle) and the calibrated values on the right (marked in pink rectangle).

TPS voltage should move smoothly over a range of about 3-4V as you move the throttle from open to closed. And it needs to be calibrated so it reads 0% with the throttle closed and 100% with it fully open.  

You will need a working MAP sensor to run the engine with this tune.  To run it without a MAP sensor it would need significant configuration changes and you wont be able to use the idle valve.

You will also need IAT and ECT sensors connected and working.  

 

TPS wiring will likely match this 4AGE one:

 

 

Many thanks again Adam, I have adjusted the values of the tune with what you have said above. Please may you just check what I have done is correct. Unfortunately not with my engine this weekend, so can't play with the sensors and get them working quite yet. Guess I need to get a MAP sensor then if what you say above is correct, and not possible to start without that. 

Anything else you think needs adjusting please let me know.

Cheers

V4 forum.pclx

[barrowg]

@Adamw  

Hi Adam,

Thanks again for your help. I adjusted as above and added map. Managed to get the TPS, ECT, IAT and Map sensors all working because of a missed ground. Tried starting again tonight and it just won’t go for some reason. It tries to start each revolution but won’t go. Any ideas? 

 

 

[Adamw]

Its only firing on one cylinder.  So could be plug leads in wrong order, stuck injectors, distributor out of phase etc.  I would first try a squirt of starter fluid or petrol into the manifold to see if that changes anything - if more cylinders come alive with that then you can look more at stuck injectors or fuel plumbing.  

If adding fuel doesnt help then confirm the rotors are pointing at the correct post and each lead is running to the correct cylinder.  I dont have much experience  with the twin dizzy 1U, so im not sure if the wrong ignitor wired to the wrong ign drive could cause anything weird like that, but I would also confirm the ign 1 output is connected to the ignitor that controls the coil on the bank that has cyl #1 

Im not sure if it is an optical illusion, but is the smoke in the video coming from the exhaust?  It almost looks like it is coming from the head gasket area or something?

[barrowg]

7 hours ago, Adamw said:

Its only firing on one cylinder.  So could be plug leads in wrong order, stuck injectors, distributor out of phase etc.  I would first try a squirt of starter fluid or petrol into the manifold to see if that changes anything - if more cylinders come alive with that then you can look more at stuck injectors or fuel plumbing.  

If adding fuel doesnt help then confirm the rotors are pointing at the correct post and each lead is running to the correct cylinder.  I dont have much experience  with the twin dizzy 1U, so im not sure if the wrong ignitor wired to the wrong ign drive could cause anything weird like that, but I would also confirm the ign 1 output is connected to the ignitor that controls the coil on the bank that has cyl #1 

Im not sure if it is an optical illusion, but is the smoke in the video coming from the exhaust?  It almost looks like it is coming from the head gasket area or something?

Hi Adam,

thanks for the reply. Firstly it’s definitely coming from the exhaust that is just the light shining through window making it look weird luckily. 
 

I did try a bit of Aero Start to before firing to give it a helping hand but may potentially try whilst cranking to see if that works. Will also try switch around igniters to see if that worked. 
 

not sure how to check the rotors pointing at correct post tbh but again will search it up and work it out. 
 

as posted on FB too, some are saying the triggers look weird and polarity could be the wrong way around? Do you think they look odd in any way? Think I posted the trigger scope as a picture above. 

[Adamw]

2 hours ago, barrowg said:

as posted on FB too, some are saying the triggers look weird and polarity could be the wrong way around? Do you think they look odd in any way? Think I posted the trigger scope as a picture above. 

The triggers like fine.  The "oddness" of the waveform is only because the crank rpm increases suddenly by 2 or 300% when the one cyl fires, then it drops back to slow for the other 7.  As far as the ecu is concerned it looks quite acceptable.  

[barrowg]

2 hours ago, Adamw said:

The triggers like fine.  The "oddness" of the waveform is only because the crank rpm increases suddenly by 2 or 300% when the one cyl fires, then it drops back to slow for the other 7.  As far as the ecu is concerned it looks quite acceptable.  

Okay so I guess I’ll start with what you’ve said above then. Is there anything else you think might be worth checking at all? I’ll start with trying to crank and use aero start, then try swapping around igniters, then swap ign 1&2 on ecu pins. Anything else? Cheers

[barrowg]

@Adamw Another frustrating evening testing all of what you said above with no real results to be honest. I tried switch the timing around 360 and 180 which results in a back fire through the inlet on 180, which would suggest it definitely needs to be 0 or 360 timing I would think. We are still only getting spark and exhaust from the left bank again and nothing but a bit of white smoke from the right, which I guess is unburnt fuel. This leads me to think we’re not getting the correct spark or something similar. When doing an ignition test the left bank igniter is much louder than the right, however both have 12v when tested. Any ideas? Not 100% sure what to check next as getting a bit frustrated with constant dead ends at this point. 

[Vaughan]

adjusting the trigger offset by 360 or 180 won't physically change anything ignition related on the engine as the distributers determine which cylinders get the spark. Each of the two ignition drives fires every 180deg with a 90deg offset between them so adjusting by 360 or 180deg puts the spark at the same place while the rotor in the distributer is pointing at the opposite cylinder. If you think the timing might be flipped then you need to make sure that the rotor in your distributer is pointing at the cylinder that is at the top of it's compression stroke.

[barrowg]

On 5/16/2024 at 10:58 PM, Vaughan said:

adjusting the trigger offset by 360 or 180 won't physically change anything ignition related on the engine as the distributers determine which cylinders get the spark. Each of the two ignition drives fires every 180deg with a 90deg offset between them so adjusting by 360 or 180deg puts the spark at the same place while the rotor in the distributer is pointing at the opposite cylinder. If you think the timing might be flipped then you need to make sure that the rotor in your distributer is pointing at the cylinder that is at the top of it's compression stroke.

To be honest i'm not 100% sure what the issue is, just know that I am only getting it to fire on cylinder 5 and occasionally cylinder 1. Just trying to narrow down the potential issues at this point, and the timing is one that has been recommended on Facebook forums. If there are any other recommendations from you guys on how to determine the issue that would be great.

[Adamw]

Did you try the starter fluid that I suggested earlier yet?  When you do an ignition test do you have a spark coming out of both coil leads?  If you manually turn it to TDC#1, is your rotor pointing to the number 1 post?  And is the lead on that post going to cyl 1?  Then do the same check for all of the other TDC's in firing order.    

[barrowg]

10 hours ago, Adamw said:

Did you try the starter fluid that I suggested earlier yet?  When you do an ignition test do you have a spark coming out of both coil leads?  If you manually turn it to TDC#1, is your rotor pointing to the number 1 post?  And is the lead on that post going to cyl 1?  Then do the same check for all of the other TDC's in firing order.    

Yes tried aero start with no luck unfortunately. Nothing changed so back to the drawing board. I’ll give that a go amongst a few other bits I’ve been recommended too. Somewhat frustrating now. Would you say having the twin distributor setting on ecu is right or am I missing something there too. 

feel something in the ign or inj setting is wrong in my opinion 

[Vaughan]

twin distributer is the correct ignition mode, you need to visually confirm distributer rotor positions as Adam has requested and as I mentioned above.

[barrowg]

On 5/20/2024 at 12:15 AM, Vaughan said:

twin distributer is the correct ignition mode, you need to visually confirm distributer rotor positions as Adam has requested and as I mentioned above.

Hi guys so managed to get some time tonight to test tdc of all pistons with rotors. Seems they are all correct, so tested the sparks when cranking. I’m only getting cylinders 1,2, & 5 sparking when cranking. Is this a trigger issue or something else? I’m testing all the plug lines and sparks, they are all ok. Any ideas? 

[Adamw]

First pull the coil lead off bank 2 distributor to check if there is spark coming out of that when cranking.  If there is no spark coming out of coil 2 when cranking then use the ignition test on ign 2 when not cranking to confirm the coil/ignitor/wiring is ok.   If there is spark at #2 coil when cranking but you dont have spark coming out to the individual plug leads then that would likely be a rotor phasing issue. 

[barrowg]

17 minutes ago, Adamw said:

First pull the coil lead off bank 2 distributor to check if there is spark coming out of that when cranking.  If there is no spark coming out of coil 2 when cranking then use the ignition test on ign 2 when not cranking to confirm the coil/ignitor/wiring is ok.   If there is spark at #2 coil when cranking but you dont have spark coming out to the individual plug leads then that would likely be a rotor phasing issue. 

Surely that must be working as confirmed by cylinder 2 firing on the right hand side bank/coil and then 1/5 firing on the left on coil 1? Or am I missing something here. 
 

I have done multiple ign tests, and both click when testing indicating they are working surely? 

[Vaughan]

6 minutes ago, barrowg said:

Surely that must be working as confirmed by cylinder 2 firing on the right hand side bank/coil and then 1/5 firing on the left on coil 1? Or am I missing something here. 

If the rotor phasing is out it you won't see any spark on the individual leads but will on the lead to the dizzy

Do you have any pictures of the rotors at tdc on compression stroke of cylinder 1 (picture of bank 1 cams at same engine angle helps confirm compression stroke), also pictures of which leads from each distributer run where would help to confirm the are connected properly.

[Adamw]

6 minutes ago, barrowg said:

Surely that must be working as confirmed by cylinder 2 firing on the right hand side bank/coil and then 1/5 firing on the left on coil 1? Or am I missing something here. 

Sorry I originally skim read that as 1, 3 & 5, missed the cyl 2.  

To confirm the trigger is ok, unplug the coils/ignitors so its not firing when cranking and do us another PC log of it cranking.  It looked ok in the last scope you provided so I dont have much doubt there is any trigger issue.  

[barrowg]

Hi @Adamw me again, still with the same issue. Managed to finally get it spark on all 8, due a short/unnecessary wire in one of the igniters, which I have now removed. Annoyingly I didn't try start it when I had it firing on all 8 as it was 11pm and was thoughtful of neighbours. Stupidly didnt save the map, and then came back to it a week later, to find it hadn't been saved. Bit annoying, but no bother, as I just recreated it, and expected it to spark all 8. Nope, for some reason it didn't like that. Now It is soo erratic sometimes sparking on 0, sometimes 3 sometimes 6. Not a clue what is going on, and can only say that it must be a dodgy cam or crank sensor or something, but doesn't make sense in my eyes. Getting VERY frustrated with it now. Is there anything in these files that you guys would look at or do I just need to find a local expert to come look at the engine in person, or can you remote in somehow when I am available? Seems to me the triggers arent syncing or something similar just getting very annoyed at it now.

(Apologies PC log of cranking is Zip only way to make small enough)

Trigger Scope - 2024-06-23 6;23;24 pm.llgx PC Datalog - 2024-06-23 6;23;40 pm.zip

[Vaughan]

Your trigger scope shows the triggers aren't syncing properly, the Trigger 1 state keeps dropping back to idle every engine cycle. Can you attach a copy of the basemap that you were using when you took that trigger scope please.

[barrowg]

18 hours ago, Vaughan said:

Your trigger scope shows the triggers aren't syncing properly, the Trigger 1 state keeps dropping back to idle every engine cycle. Can you attach a copy of the basemap that you were using when you took that trigger scope please

Attached to link: https://we.tl/t-huoOym4DcL

[Adamw]

Your trigger settings match the pattern received, but I think your issue is there is a small spike of noise being interpreted as an extra tooth on trigger 2 as you can see the trigger state resets when this occurs.  

 

Try changing these two below to see if that masks the effect.