G4X 6 Port Turbo Fc Rx-7 Trigger Issues

[Noah_Shat]

Hello, this is my first time using standalone engine management and I'm new to the firmware and tuning in general. I have a s4 13b using the stock cas and I believe it's the source to my no start condition currently. I have already set base timing which is dead nuts on. I was hoping to compare trigger settings to some who might also be using this type of cas.

Trigger Scope - 2024-10-14 12;29;47 pm.llgxBase Tune.pclx

[Laminar]

Make sure you wait until after you've started cranking to click the "capture" button.

Do you also have a normal datalog of an attempted start?

[Adamw]

What makes you think you have a trigger issue?  If you have set the base timing that would suggest the trigger must be working ok?  Your basic trigger settings look ok to me.  

What size injectors?  Do injectors click in test mode? What does it have for ignition coils? 

 

[Noah_Shat]

6 hours ago, Laminar said:

Make sure you wait until after you've started cranking to click the "capture" button.

Do you also have a normal datalog of an attempted start?

I'll grab one tomorrow I drained the battery. Sorry about the capture I thought I had to clock before.

3 hours ago, Adamw said:

What makes you think you have a trigger issue?  If you have set the base timing that would suggest the trigger must be working ok?  Your basic trigger settings look ok to me.  

What size injectors?  Do injectors click in test mode? What does it have for ignition coils? 

 

Injectors are id1050xs primary and secondary. They all click while testing and so do the coils. I assumed it was trigger because when altering the trigger 2 setting from crank 1 to none it would pop. With the setup that you see there aren't any pops at all, it doesn't create any type of combustion. Sorry if my explanation is poor I'm still new to this. 

[Adamw]

Your trigger offset seems wrong compared to what I expect.  I havent touched one with a CAS for many years so I might be wrong, but with an FD3S trigger and leading direct ignition the trigger offset should be close to zero.  

But your timing marks wouldnt line up if you were 180 out, which contradicts your "dead nuts on" comment, unless you had the timing light clipped on rotor 2?  Can you try with trigger offset set to zero.   

[Noah_Shat]

2 hours ago, Adamw said:

Your trigger offset seems wrong compared to what I expect.  I havent touched one with a CAS for many years so I might be wrong, but with an FD3S trigger and leading direct ignition the trigger offset should be close to zero.  

But your timing marks wouldnt line up if you were 180 out, which contradicts your "dead nuts on" comment, unless you had the timing light clipped on rotor 2?  Can you try with trigger offset set to zero.   

You know what I was thinking maybe I put my wire to the wrong plug maybe. 🤦‍♂️ I stabbed the CAS before setting up the timing and the mark wasn't anywhere near the timing mark. After changing the offset to 180° it was almost perfect. Again I'll check in the morning. I'm going to feel pretty special if that was my mistake.  

[Noah_Shat]

16 hours ago, Adamw said:

Your trigger offset seems wrong compared to what I expect.  I havent touched one with a CAS for many years so I might be wrong, but with an FD3S trigger and leading direct ignition the trigger offset should be close to zero.  

But your timing marks wouldnt line up if you were 180 out, which contradicts your "dead nuts on" comment, unless you had the timing light clipped on rotor 2?  Can you try with trigger offset set to zero.   

I did have the leading spark plug wires swapped. So timing is correct now. I've been trying to get it to start but I think I have too much fuel on my map even without cold start enrichment.

[Adamw]

Most of your fuel settings look to be in the ballpark to me.  

If you havent already I would remove the spark plugs and give them a clean, rotaries can be pretty fussy to start when the tune is off a bit and dirty plugs from the earlier start attempts will make it more difficult.   

From there I would try adjusting the master a bit either way to see if it sounds happier with more or less fuel.  Make a decent change like 2 or 3ms each way.  Sometimes holding the throttle wide open while cranking can help if there has been a lot of excess fuel floating around.

[Noah_Shat]

2 hours ago, Adamw said:

Most of your fuel settings look to be in the ballpark to me.  

If you havent already I would remove the spark plugs and give them a clean, rotaries can be pretty fussy to start when the tune is off a bit and dirty plugs from the earlier start attempts will make it more difficult.   

From there I would try adjusting the master a bit either way to see if it sounds happier with more or less fuel.  Make a decent change like 2 or 3ms each way.  Sometimes holding the throttle wide open while cranking can help if there has been a lot of excess fuel floating around.

I will give that a go next time I'm over there. It's definitely rich as last time I got it to somewhat fire it was nothing but raw fuel. I created a cloud over the entire col de sac :() I'll try 2ms down. I really appreciate the knowledge. I'll also give the plugs a brake cleaner bath 

[Noah_Shat]

20 hours ago, Adamw said:

Most of your fuel settings look to be in the ballpark to me.  

If you havent already I would remove the spark plugs and give them a clean, rotaries can be pretty fussy to start when the tune is off a bit and dirty plugs from the earlier start attempts will make it more difficult.   

From there I would try adjusting the master a bit either way to see if it sounds happier with more or less fuel.  Make a decent change like 2 or 3ms each way.  Sometimes holding the throttle wide open while cranking can help if there has been a lot of excess fuel floating around.

Okay I've adjusted the master I feel like 4ms has felt the best so far, not saying it feels great. There is a lot of engine vibration almost as if it's missing really bad. I cleaned the plugs again and tried some starting fluid and it starts great and revs very smoothly, so I guess all my ignition settings are great. I currently still have warm up enrichment off because when it's on there is even more raw fuel coming out the back. I also have a downpipe leak I need to fix before anything else.

[Laminar]

Do you have an updated tune and datalog to share?

[Noah_Shat]

I can repost the tune, the only difference the original upload is the master fuel adjustment, no fuel enrichment, and the offset is now zero. I'll upload it when I have a free second at work. How do I record a datalog? 

[Vaughan]

press F8 while connected to the ECU to start and stop PCLink logs (or click the PC Log button by the Offline/Online button in the top right of PCLink).

Logging -> Save Log File As to save the log, Log file manager down the left hand side of PCLink to change between logs if you have multiple open.

[Noah_Shat]

3 hours ago, Vaughan said:

press F8 while connected to the ECU to start and stop PCLink logs (or click the PC Log button by the Offline/Online button in the top right of PCLink).

Logging -> Save Log File As to save the log, Log file manager down the left hand side of PCLink to change between logs if you have multiple open.

Thank you. This is the current tune and a log of me cranking it then feathering the throttle to make it "run". 

 

PC Datalog - 2024-10-16 4;37;24 pm.llgx Base Tune.pclx

PC Datalog - 2024-10-16 4;43;54 pm 2.llgx

[Adamw]

Your MAP sensor source needs to be set to "Internal", and your master will likely need to be much bigger when you have a working MAP sensor.  

It looks like the alternator may not be working either.

[Noah_Shat]

15 minutes ago, Adamw said:

Your MAP sensor source needs to be set to "Internal", and your master will likely need to be much bigger when you have a working MAP sensor.  

It looks like the alternator may not be working either.

I can't I didn't see the map up correctly, I set it up on the base tune later on but didn't save to ECU. Alternator sub harness may need fixing I had to redo it when making the harness as it's a FD alt. Is there a precise way to figure out the fuel master other than by feel? Or in your opinion is that the best way?

 

[Adamw]

1 hour ago, Noah_Shat said:

Is there a precise way to figure out the fuel master other than by feel? Or in your opinion is that the best way?

It is not important, it is just an overall multiplier to give it more or less fuel.  If you dont have a working lambda measurement then you can only adjust by feel.  For a rotary with 1000cc injectors I would have expected a master in the ballpark of 8-15ms.  

[Noah_Shat]

3 hours ago, Adamw said:

It is not important, it is just an overall multiplier to give it more or less fuel.  If you dont have a working lambda measurement then you can only adjust by feel.  For a rotary with 1000cc injectors I would have expected a master in the ballpark of 8-15ms.  

Okay thanks for that, you made that really easy to comprehend. But get this, if it's a fuel multiplier and it responds better to less fuel I surely have too much on my map right? It can't run between 8-15ms. But seems to work fine at 3-4.(By work fine I mean it can somewhat run) Only thing I can of is maybe I need less fuel than most traditional rotarys since I have a higher compression setup since the motor was originally NA.

PC Datalog - 2024-10-16 8;46;53 pm 3.llgx

[Adamw]

With the MAP sensor working you will have less than 1/2 of the fuel injected that you had before when the map sensor wasnt set-up.  So are you saying with the MAP sensor working it is still happiest at 4ms?

[Noah_Shat]

1 minute ago, Adamw said:

With the MAP sensor working you will have less than 1/2 of the fuel injected that you had before when the map sensor wasnt set-up.  So are you saying with the MAP sensor working it is still happiest at 4ms?

Yes what I said was after connecting the map. I definitely noticed there is less raw fuel but it still will only run with the same setting. It will run alright anywhere between 2-4ms.

[Adamw]

You can start tuning it and see where it leads, but something still doesnt feel right to me here.  There is possibly some other issue confusing the symptoms.  Our FD test car with 850cc primary injectors has the master fuel at 16ms, admittedly the numbers in the fuel table are smaller than yours, but to give a better metric, the injector PW on a cold idle is about 2ms.  It makes a little better vacuum than yours.  Your first log with MAP not working had a 10ms inj PW for cold idle (or say about 7x more fuel than ours needs), then in your most recent log with the MAP working your injector PW is now 1.2ms, which is 10X less fuel than you originally had.  It just seems odd that you have arrived at the same master for "best running condition", but "best running" needed 10X more fuel on the earlier start than it does now. 

Have you confirmed fuel pressure?  Have you confirmed both trailing plugs are firing in the right spot? 

[Noah_Shat]

8 hours ago, Adamw said:

You can start tuning it and see where it leads, but something still doesnt feel right to me here.  There is possibly some other issue confusing the symptoms.  Our FD test car with 850cc primary injectors has the master fuel at 16ms, admittedly the numbers in the fuel table are smaller than yours, but to give a better metric, the injector PW on a cold idle is about 2ms.  It makes a little better vacuum than yours.  Your first log with MAP not working had a 10ms inj PW for cold idle (or say about 7x more fuel than ours needs), then in your most recent log with the MAP working your injector PW is now 1.2ms, which is 10X less fuel than you originally had.  It just seems odd that you have arrived at the same master for "best running condition", but "best running" needed 10X more fuel on the earlier start than it does now. 

Have you confirmed fuel pressure?  Have you confirmed both trailing plugs are firing in the right spot? 

I think you're right that there is something I'm missing. I'm going to start at square one and work my way up again. I'll check the trailing timing, as far as fuel pressure I'm using a stock lower and upper rail with original FPR. I can tee into the line and see what the pressure is at. Thanks for referencing your FD test car, it confirms to me that I'm wrong about the fuel map.

[Noah_Shat]

2 hours ago, Noah_Shat said:

I think you're right that there is something I'm missing. I'm going to start at square one and work my way up again. I'll check the trailing timing, as far as fuel pressure I'm using a stock lower and upper rail with original FPR. I can tee into the line and see what the pressure is at. Thanks for referencing your FD test car, it confirms to me that I'm wrong about the fuel map.

Okay so something seems to be off with my trigger or ignition setting as with the timing light the trailing plugs are not firing at all. They work with the ignition test settings and get good spark, but when cranking they don't seem to fire at all. Also for reference I'm using LS1 ignition coils.

[Adamw]

Can you attach your current map.  I will do a quick bench test to confirm all outputs are firing with a simulated crank signal.

I would also pull a trailing plug out and visually check there is no spark when cranking.  No timing light flash doesnt always mean no spark is being commanded.  What coils/ignitors are you using? 

[Noah_Shat]

2 hours ago, Adamw said:

Can you attach your current map.  I will do a quick bench test to confirm all outputs are firing with a simulated crank signal.

I would also pull a trailing plug out and visually check there is no spark when cranking.  No timing light flash doesnt always mean no spark is being commanded.  What coils/ignitors are you using? 

I will send the current one, not at the car currently because of work, I can check for physical spark tomorrow. I'm using LS1 ignition coils. I tested them with my split my table all at -15 degrees but in the map you see it will be my normal split table. 

Base Tune.pclx