2JZGTE VVTi Ignition Break Up

[98szr]

Hi,

I currently have ignition break up issues on a 2JZGTE VVTi, brand new coils, leads and connectors with anything around 23psi+, seems to get worse as it's warmer. I've replaced the igniter in the past which seemed to improve the issue but it's back again.

Without posting all the details here again, I've put a link to a better explination and further details- http://www.supraforums.com.au/forum/under-bonnet/81685-2jzgte-vvti-ignition-break-up.html#post1265524

But on this forums I was after any similar issues with Vipec uV88 2jzgte vvti users. Is there a recommended dwell setting for the vvti igniter? Is it a know vvti issue or vvti igniter issue. Is there a 2jzgte vvti coil dwell limit?

I know these coils have had great results with 800hp supras running 30psi of boost in wasted spark. My current dwell is 2.4ms from 13-14v using table settings, lower settings make it worse and have tried all different plugs and gaps. Looking at the last potential technical issues before I move to a ls2 truck coil setup with built in igniters. I know Ray hall even changed his coil/ignition setup on his car with this engine and coils so might just be a fundamental issue with the complete setup running higher boost.

[lekonna]

just thought i'd chime in,i had the exact same problem with the original ignition setup in 2jz (non vvti) could not find a solution so switched to 034 motorsport coils, no problems with these. this stuff puzzles me since local guy dynoed 1127hp with the orig coils and just the hks dli box.

[98szr]

just thought i'd chime in,i had the exact same problem with the original ignition setup in 2jz (non vvti) could not find a solution so switched to 034 motorsport coils, no problems with these. this stuff puzzles me since local guy dynoed 1127hp with the orig coils and just the hks dli box.

Yeah it seems a little crazy that some are fine and others aren't, I'm not 100% the ignition issues are the problem now.

I just spent the day doing some testing;

15psi - no issues

19-20psi - no issues

24psi - Hit the wall @ 5500rpm, bad break up.

I've found changing dwell makes no difference really!

Pulled the spark plugs and no.6 was very rich and fouled up so I swapped injector 6 and 1, spark plug 1 is now very rich and fouled up.

Sometimes AFR's are correct (11-11.5) then other times it's very low 10's (10.0-10.7).

So it could be a bad injector, I'm no expert but I assume this could cause a misfire in this cylinder causing all my issues?

Didn't expect the ID2000's to have problems from the get go, might be worth getting bench flow tested and cleaned.

[lekonna]

i'm running ID2000's as well. one additional thing that i did was to get complete new ecu wiring harness, when i was playing around with the coils trying to figure this out i found out that some of the coil wiring was cracked and looked generally like shit anyways. Anyways one aristo with link ecu had the same issues with sparktec coils here, he switched to using a cdi box and the problems were gone.

[Jason]

I'm running 2nzfe denso coils with built in ignitors on mine, but have only run it to 19psi without any breakdown issues, only clutch slip

I wasn't aware that the Vipec could drive the Toyota JZ ignitor correctly, I thought it had to be changed for a dumb ignitor when doing a vipec install on a JZ.

Have you logged the voltage at the injectors/ignition and compared it to what the ECU is actually reading? I've had a couple of installs on factory wiring now where there was a fair difference between the two, so the deadtime/dwell values were out as the voltage the ECU was reading didn't match what the injectors/ignition were receiving.

[Scott]

Good morning,

We did some bench testing a little while back using the factory supra ignition coils with the factory ignitor and with an aftermarket ignitor.

Here are the dwell tables we ended up with.

Factory ignitor with factory coils

Aftermarket 'dumb' ignitor with factory coils

The part numbers for the components were:

Supra Ignition coil: 90919 - 02205

Supra Ignitor: 89621-22030

Aftermarket Ignitor: I2

Cheers,

Scott

[98szr]

i'm running ID2000's as well. one additional thing that i did was to get complete new ecu wiring harness, when i was playing around with the coils trying to figure this out i found out that some of the coil wiring was cracked and looked generally like shit anyways. Anyways one aristo with link ecu had the same issues with sparktec coils here, he switched to using a cdi box and the problems were gone.

ViPEC ECU wiring harness is new and engine harness wiring is in really good condition and tested when I did the install, all unrequired plugs removed etc New coilpack plug clips and coil wiring in good condition, LS2 coils might be the best option for me.

I'm running 2nzfe denso coils with built in ignitors on mine, but have only run it to 19psi without any breakdown issues, only clutch slip

I wasn't aware that the Vipec could drive the Toyota JZ ignitor correctly, I thought it had to be changed for a dumb ignitor when doing a vipec install on a JZ.

Have you logged the voltage at the injectors/ignition and compared it to what the ECU is actually reading? I've had a couple of installs on factory wiring now where there was a fair difference between the two, so the deadtime/dwell values were out as the voltage the ECU was reading didn't match what the injectors/ignition were receiving.

Time for a better Clutch mate haha. I have heard that a smart igniter can't be used by a few people but nothing official and doesn't seem like common knowledge, it might be the issue. Haven't had a chance to check voltage against injector/ignition vs ECU, might be worth a check also - thanks for the tip.

Good morning,

We did some bench testing a little while back using the factory supra ignition coils with the factory ignitor and with an aftermarket ignitor.

Here are the dwell tables we ended up with.

Factory ignitor with factory coils

Aftermarket 'dumb' ignitor with factory coils

The part numbers for the components were:

Supra Ignition coil: 90919 - 02205

Supra Ignitor: 89621-22030

Aftermarket Ignitor: I2

Cheers,

Scott

Thanks for the testing results Scott, these are handy but are for the non-vvti coils and igniter, not sure how much different the vvti units are.

[Scott]

Good morning,

Yes, you are correct, these components were from a non-VVT model 2JZ-GTE. It would be interesting to know if there is any difference in specifications, but I have my doubts.

Cheers,

Scott

[lekonna]

Good morning,

Yes, you are correct, these components were from a non-VVT model 2JZ-GTE. It would be interesting to know if there is any difference in specifications, but I have my doubts.

Cheers,

Scott

atleast the part number for the igniter changes, dunno whats the difference though.

[Guest |266|]

We made over 900 wheel HP on E85 with stock non VVTi coils using Vi-Pec for what it's worth. No ignition amplifier used.

[98szr]

Been a few weeks since I could do further testing but took Jason's advice and started looking at voltages.

This is my copy and paste from another forum;

Fuel injectors were cleaned, serviced and flow tested (Before and after), buckets were swapped out on injectors because they were clogged, moved to a smaller fatter bucket.

Results below (All in ml), Plug 1 still running rich as f#ck and bet this test didn't go as in-depth as some others, might contact T1 regarding them after xmas. I still don't think it's the cause of the break-up anyway.

Injector Before After Difference

1 - 118 - 124 - 6

2 - 105 - 113 - 8

3 - 113 - 119 - 6

4 - 106 - 118 - 12

5 - 99 - 121 - 22

6 - 113 - 118 - 5

The next thing I did was run some more earths and fix some earths. I ran 1 from the head to the chassis, 1 from transmission to fuel filter bracket (OEM one was removed when bracket was fab'ed up). Moved the 2x main ECU earths from average frame earths directly to the block.

Ran some voltage tests this arvo all after some logging at operating temps to see what voltages I was getting;

Battery - 12.8v

Pre-Fused Distribution block -13.3v

Post-Fused Distribution block -14.2v

Fuse box from alternator - 14.2v

Apexi RSM display - 13.5v

ECU (Vipec V88) - 13.3v

Alternator output is great and I found out it's a 120amp Aristo JZS161 alternator, always above 14.2v, but there seems to be a 1v-1.4v or so drop from alternator to battery, all at the fused distributer when the car is running. I've posted car off battery voltages below;

Battery - 12.5v

Pre-Fused Distribution block -12.4v

Post-Fused Distribution block -12.2v

Fuse box from alternator - 12.2v

Apexi RSM display - 12.1v

ECU (Vipec V88) - 12.0v

Max .3v drop from alternator to battery which sounds about right for a battery relocation.

All my ECU logs show a slight voltage drop on boost from around 13v - 12.8v above 6000rpm. My main concern is that ECU and fuel pumps are getting 12.8v or so when they should be getting 13.8-14.2v, not sure if this is playing a part of the issue since 20psi no breakup and 23psi more breakup (weak spark due to voltage issues maybe?).

I don't quite understand why there is such a large difference at idle vs off, I'd like to rule this out before troubleshooting further.

I've got some colder plugs coming to test and the next test will be a different igniter, after that the LS2 genuine coils will be used, I'd really like to sort this without going down the aftermarket path. I'm starting to think a potential voltage issue just due to the fact that if it's a weak spark on brand new coils, plugs, connectors and everything else seems to be in check on the ECU (failsafes, settings etc), or the damn igniter!

[Dave Kriedeman]

What voltage do you get at coil positive, test the voltage while cranking the engine and also with the engine running.

Regards

Dave.

[98szr]

What voltage do you get at coil positive, test the voltage while cranking the engine and also with the engine running.

Regards

Dave.

Thanks Dave,

Will have to test that tomorrow night after work, should be able to get a multimeter probe on the back of the coil pack connector clips for that test. I will also try and join all the wires bypassing the fused distribution box and see if that yields different results too.

[98szr]

Thanks Dave,

Will have to test that tomorrow night after work, should be able to get a multimeter probe on the back of the coil pack connector clips for that test. I will also try and join all the wires bypassing the fused distribution box and see if that yields different results too.

Just realised I will only be able to test at the igniter connector where I have a ignition booster spliced in to each coil wire, only real way for me to test from the actual coil would be strip some wire insulator which I really don't want to do.

[Dave Kriedeman]

I have small probes for back probing connectors.

If you dont have small probes,try using a straightened out paper clip to back probe the connector.

In the past on some early model vehicles, i have setup a relay to supply good voltage to the coil positive.

I bypass the original ignition fed source and connect pin 30 of the relay to the alternator output.

I use the original coil possitive feed to activate the relay when the ignition is turned on.

This method insures a very healthy power source to the ignition coils.

I also see you mention you have an ignition amplifier attached.

Care to shed some detail on this.

What is the product and how have you connected it.

Regards

Dave.

[98szr]

I have small probes for back probing connectors.

If you dont have small probes,try using a straightened out paper clip to back probe the connector.

In the past on some early model vehicles, i have setup a relay to supply good voltage to the coil positive.

I bypass the original ignition fed source and connect pin 30 of the relay to the alternator output.

I use the original coil possitive feed to activate the relay when the ignition is turned on.

This method insures a very healthy power source to the ignition coils.

I also see you mention you have an ignition amplifier attached.

Care to shed some detail on this.

What is the product and how have you connected it.

Regards

Dave.

That's a good idea with the paperclip, I will try that once I fix the issue/s I found tonight.

The ignition amplifier is an Okada Plasma Booster used to boost ignition coil current (negative side of coil) - http://www.okadaprojects.com/usa/products_booster.htm. I brought this over a DLI at the time as I couldn't get a DLI and had good reviews/feedback from some supra guys in the US, this didn't seem to resolve any ignition issues what so ever from my obserbations!

So first I tested from the coilpack ground leads where it meets the igniter connectors;

Cranking - dropped to 9.5-9.8v worst for a tiny moment

Idle - was around 13.8-14v as expected for each coil

Noticed while testing resistance between coil leads and igniter plug that coil 2 & 3 negative wires from igniter go to different coils (they are mixed up) - not sure how much of an impact if any this has but something I'd probably like to fix up!

The picture below is what a normal install looks like (not mine) - my coil 2 and coil 3 wires are mixed up.

I also tested removing the fused distribution box and am now getting a solid 14v on all circuits, there is no 1v drop from alternator to battery, so that issue was the fused distribution block. A lot of this I probably won't be able to test further until after xmas unless I can get an alternative distribution block from an auto store tomorrow, but not sure what impact this will have if any as the 1v drop seemed to only be on the battery side, I will also re-cal the wideband and set fuel pressure again before testing.

[Dave Kriedeman]

You mention the Plasma Booster is connected to the negative side of the coils.

That is unusual, i would like to understand how that works.

I have never used any of these types of products, i normally use CDI units.

CDI units work by amplifying the coil positive from 12 - 14 volts and generating 400 - 500 volts into the coil primary, hence for the huge secondary output.

When using CDI units the positive feed to the coil is responsible for coil switching and charge time (minimal), the coil negative is a constant tied to ground.

On standard ignition systems coil positive is a constant, fed from ignition source.

Coil negative does the switching via the ECU or an ignitor (external or internal with some COP), coil secondary output is governed by the dwell time (time coil negative is held to ground) and the coils construction, number of turns in the secondary winding.

So i dont understand how amplifying the negative side of the coil increases the secondary output.

But then again, my knowledge base is governed by what i am familiar with.

You also mention you have the coils 2 and 3 negatives connected to the wrong ignition module pins.

The 2JZ firing order is 1,5,3,6,2,4.

This setup uses Wasted spark, so the following will apply.

Ignition output 1 on module pin No. 1 should go to coil negative controlling cylinders 1 and 6.

Ignition output 2 on module pin No. 9 should go to coil negative controlling cylinders 5 and 2.

Ignition output 3 on module pin No.10 should go to coil negative controlling cylinders 3 and 4.

"""NOTE""" the module pin numbers i have stated 1,9 and 10 are used in this response as you have mention that these are infact the correct pin numbers.

I havent checked to see if these pin numbers and functions are correct for this module.

[98szr]

You mention the Plasma Booster is connected to the negative side of the coils.

That is unusual, i would like to understand how that works.

I have never used any of these types of products, i normally use CDI units.

CDI units work by amplifying the coil positive from 12 - 14 volts and generating 400 - 500 volts into the coil primary, hence for the huge secondary output.

When using CDI units the positive feed to the coil is responsible for coil switching and charge time (minimal), the coil negative is a constant tied to ground.

On standard ignition systems coil positive is a constant, fed from ignition source.

Coil negative does the switching via the ECU or an ignitor (external or internal with some COP), coil secondary output is governed by the dwell time (time coil negative is held to ground) and the coils construction, number of turns in the secondary winding.

So i dont understand how amplifying the negative side of the coil increases the secondary output.

But then again, my knowledge base is governed by what i am familiar with.

You also mention you have the coils 2 and 3 negatives connected to the wrong ignition module pins.

The 2JZ firing order is 1,5,3,6,2,4.

This setup uses Wasted spark, so the following will apply.

Ignition output 1 on module pin No. 1 should go to coil negative controlling cylinders 1 and 6.

Ignition output 2 on module pin No. 9 should go to coil negative controlling cylinders 5 and 2.

Ignition output 3 on module pin No.10 should go to coil negative controlling cylinders 3 and 4.

"""NOTE""" the module pin numbers i have stated 1,9 and 10 are used in this response as you have mention that these are infact the correct pin numbers.

I havent checked to see if these pin numbers and functions are correct for this module.

Thanks for the reponses Dave. Now that I'm back home I was able to check and fix a few things;

The old fused distribution box is now out and replaced with a simple twin distribution post, solid 14.5v across the terminals now @ idle. I'm still seeing a drop from alternator to ECU (i.e - 13.6v @ alternator and 13.1 @ ECU), still some further voltage tests to do on injectors and coils once car warms up I think, not sure what an acceptable voltage drop from alternator to ECU is, also on boost I'm dropping as low as 12.8v @ 23psi - which would be around 13.3 @ the alternator.

I also solved the coil wiring/numbering. I had it all correct. The above pictures are incorrect along with all the pin numbers etc, I had a look in a workshop manual of the IS300 (same coil/igniter setup) and also some japanese aristo jzs161 electrical diagrams and coils are number as follows;

Coil 1 - Cyl 1 + 6 - Pin 10 on igniter

Coil 2 - Cyl 2 + 5 - Pin 1 on igniter

Coil 3 - Cyl 3 + 4 - Pin 2 on igniter

I made the mistake of assuming the coils were numbered in order, this makes sense now when looking at the igniter and why the coil 2 + 3 terminals are in that order, so no problems there. I might make a diagram to go on my website so others don't have the same issues.

Ok so now for the plasma booster. I can confirm it's on the ground side of the coils (Pins 1,2,10 to igniter) and I can also confirm that's what the instructions say. When I purchased it I was after a direct replacement for the HKS DLI (Like most other ignition products it is wired to the postive side of the coil). I'd say I didn't do enough research at the time and got the wrong product. All I'm aware of is that it provides an increase to secondary ignition coil current and is not a spark voltage increase device such as HKS DLI, MSD etc

Same issue still exists at the moment, the last thing I'm trying is swapping plugs out for colder ones which I'm waiting to be shipped and also double checking all the main power and earths to the ECU to ensure I'm getting maximum voltage to ECU.

[98szr]

Good news, after I finished writing the post this morning my new spark plugs arrived. Just took it for a test drive and it seems there is no break down anymore.

I left the plugs at the stock NGK gap of 0.8mm and took for a test drive here where it's hot today (32 degrees). I ran 24psi of boost where I usually have issues and there was no break down. I drove it hard and intake temps were getting up to 60 degrees peak in high speed, high gear pulls so was the best hot conditions to push the engine to blow the spark.

Still seem to have rich condition which still could be from bad flowing injector, also not 100% sure about battery voltage at ECU, but at least I know some simple spark plugs have resolved the issue. Time for re-tune to see how far I can push before it breaks down or it knocks I'm not calling it 100% resolved until I can run 24psi on the dyno, as the dyno runs always seem to be worse for the break down on the dyno pulls.

Also confirmed after the run battery and alternator voltage was 13.5v at idle and ECU was 13.0v.

[Dave Kriedeman]

Cool, good luck with the dyno.

Regards

Dave.