Pete_89t2
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Posts posted by Pete_89t2
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@Copyninja Regarding the idle/stalling issue, I noticed in your idle tune settings that you have Idle Ignition Control disabled. Enabling that might help - basically when you're operating in the idle region, it will advance/retard your timing based on the idle speed error. When you enable it. you'll need to populate a 2D or optionally 3D Idle Ignition Table.
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Given the kind of boost you've got in that log screenshot, I'd assume you have a very robust aftermarket fuel pump in there that is pulling a lot more current than the OEM pump did. So my first question would be how do you have the fuel pump wired - was the wiring upgraded to handle the additional current draw of the new pump? If there are any tank bulkhead connectors in the fuel pump circuit/wiring, first thing I'd do is take a close look at them and any other connection points in your fuel pump circuit - look for signs of melting and/or burned contact terminals. If you see any of that, you'll need to upgrade the wiring on your fuel pump circuit. If not, take voltage measurements at the pump while doing another pull as Adam suggested to rule out voltage drops as the root cause. If pump voltage is good, next thing I'd look into is the fuel pressure regulator.
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14 hours ago, Howard Coleman said:
like many, i log w my laptop on the pass seat. i did a search and found a thread dating to 2013 asking if Link's software would work with something other than Windows. there are some really good Android tablets available that could also work as a dash. there are very few Windows options. i am about to purchase a Surface but it runs behind numerous Android options. i plan to use it as a dash while underway as well as a logger. i will then download the logs into my laptop.
am i missing any available, or soon to be available, options?
thank you
Howard,
If you're buying a Microsoft Surface Pro, they normally come with & run Windows 11 (or with Windows 10 if it's an older model) as the native operating system, not Android. If that's the case, you can just install Link's PCLink software on that and use it to log/display as-is. I've got a Surface Pro 8 from my work that I loaded PCLink on, it works great for tuning/logging as a passenger seat dash display. No extra computer geekery required!
Pete
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Thanks a bunch Adam, great explanation! Now that I understand what I'm looking at in my logs, so in my case I'm going to try a little more accel fuel, and leave the accel time alone initially, because I see a pronounced lean dip right at the initial stage-in point, and the actual lambda doesn't change much at all while the accel time is happening (yellow arrow).
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Adam,
Related to the OP's questions, is there a recommended approach for adjusting the staged injection Accel Fuel & Accel time parameters? I too have been struggling to get my FD to stage the injectors in as smoothly as I'd like - mine typically trend way too rich at the initial staging point, which I figure means I should be reducing the accel fuel and/or time, but is there a preferred approach as to which parameter to tweak first? What should I be looking for in the logs to inform me which change (in accel fuel or time) would be more appropriate? I don't have the luxury of a dyno to work on, so I'm trying to make my road tuning iterations as productive as possible.
Thanks,
Pete
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1 hour ago, Adamw said:
There is a few ways to do that but i'd like to see a log of the stall condition if you can get one. So we can confirm it is dashpot related, rather than jump in and add complexity when it could potentially be some other basic idle setting that is causing it.
Will do. May take me some time to capture the log, as it doesn't happen too often.
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Greetings,
Subject is the question. I'm running a single turbo FD RX7 with a GM DBW throttle with my G4+ Fury. It is pretty well behaved and sorted now, but occasionally I'll experience a stalling issue when rolling to a dead stop from speed, especially if I let the clutch out and let the car roll to a stop in neutral instead of decelerating in gear.
Mazda uses a mechanical dashpot to slow the closing of the throttle on the OEM throttle body so it doesn't abruptly snap shut, but I'm lacking that with the GM DBW throttle, and I suspect if there were a way to synthetically slow the closing of my E-throttle it would help eliminate my intermittent stalling situation. Thoughts on how to set something like this up?
Thanks in advance!
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Quick question - When setting up the 3D negative CLL trim table in the G4+, does the number need to be entered in the table as a negative value? For example, if I want to allow my CLL function to pull out up to 3% fuel (leaner), do I enter that in the table cell as +3 or -3? Or does it even matter -- PCLink allows me to enter the data either way, just wanted to confirm.
Thanks,
Pete
EDIT - Never mind, I spoke too soon. It allowed me to enter a positive value into the CLL Negative trim limit table, but it wouldn't allow me to save it that way.
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I'm running the same ID1050XDS & 1700 injectors in my FD, but with an older G4+ Fury ECU. I got my short width pulse adder table & 3D voltage/fuel pressure vs. dead time table data directly from Injector Dynamics - here's the contact info: http://injectordynamics.com/contact/
Tell them you need data for the G4X, they were very helpful to me when I had to do this last year. Not sure if your G4X would get different data from my G4+ has, given the same ID injectors, but if ID can't help you out, shoot me a private message here and I can share my tables.
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OP - Looks like you need to upgrade your primary FI's if they are hitting 100% duty cycle trying to reach your target AFRs. Adam's suggestion to adjust staging will help, but if you're hitting 100% DC at only 8psi MGP, you really need more fuel. You really should size the FI's big enough so that they never have to go much beyond 85% duty cycle as a safety margin. Sounds like the Injector Dynamics ID-1050's would be perfect for your FD, though you'll need to change out the fuel rails for them to fit (ID's are top feed injectors, the stock FD injectors are side feed).
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40 minutes ago, Adamw said:
I think too much idle control proportional and the idle ign control is a bit weak. I have made a few tweaks in the attached map, see if this settles the throttle oscillation down. If not, give us a new log.
Thanks, I'll give that a try tomorrow and let you know how it went. Looks like the idle ignition timing end values on the +/- 500RPM error extremes are the same as what I had, but you're ramping up to those ignition timing extremes at lesser RPM errors to give the ignition idle control a better chance at stabilizing the idle error, and relying less on the idle control proportional & anti-stall gains to avoid the idle hunting?
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Hi Adam, here's a link to the current tune file and a log file where the behavior occurs. Right around time index 9:44.500, you can see an accel enrichment event where the car was trying to stabilize its idle, AP was at 0% and steady. If I recall, the A/C was turned off at the time.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Ioq9hWHBKNy0pFDBi365w47-ZznpRF58?usp=sharing
Looking a bit closer, it appears that the TP delta may have been triggering the accel enrichment?
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I'm trying to understand an issue I'm having with my tune where I'm seeing acceleration enrichment being triggered sometimes when it shouldn't be. I'm running an E-throttle, and my acceleration enrichment setup has "Accel Mode" and "Accel Load axis" both set to TPS.
I recently got my A/C system functional, and have been trying to tune my idle controls to deal with the A/C load. While doing that, I've had situations where the engine is nearly stalling, but the closed loop idle control catches it after a bit of hunting/oscillation. In my logs I've noted that sometimes when it behaves like this, my accel enrichment gets triggered, even when my accel pedal position is sitting still at 0%AP(main) / 0%AP(sub). The TP(main)/TP(sub) values bounce a bit between 0~8% or so until the idle settles down and stabilizes.
So the question is should I consider changing my Accel Mode and/or Accel Load axis settings to MAP instead? I'm also running closed loop lambda control at idle, so the unwanted accel enrichment tends to bugger that up.
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Thanks Adam! Got it now, I'll give that a try.
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39 minutes ago, Adamw said:
You could achieve that by putting MAP on one axis of the throttle target table, or switch to a 2nd target table with smaller max opening when a certain MAP is exceeded.
But be aware throttle is way too slow to act as engine protection. An ignition cut stops combustion instantly, closing the throttle you've still got full combustion pressure for probably 200ms or so - at 6000RPM that is 10 full engine cycles with excessive cylinder pressure.
MAP limit should only be used to prevent damage if something goes wrong, it should not be hit during normal operation - if you are then you have a boost control issue.
Thanks Adam. My DBW table is currently RPM vs Accel. Pedal position, and I'm using it to enforce a soft RPM limit; basically the last column is 250RPMs higher than my adjacent "redline" column, and that's where I pull back throttle 50% less than the target in the adjacent "redline" cell. Works really nice as an RPM limiter. I think I understand the idea of switching to a 2nd target table when a MAP threshold is exceeded, but I'm not following how to program that? I'm guessing there's a way to use MAP data to drive a virtual switch/digital input, which would toggle the 2nd DBW target table?
Didn't consider the response time of the throttle for engine protection, but perhaps it won't matter for the application I have in mind. Car in question is single turbo FD RX7; but since the 13B-REW engine's internals are unmodified OEM, in the interest of reliability the plan is to keep the engine's max power output to no more than 370~400RWHP at max boost, which should be somewhere in the neighborhood of 14~15psi MGP. My problem is the turbo I have and the supporting hardware can easily boost way beyond that level in a hurry if boost control were to fail. So assuming my final max boost number is 15psi MGP, the thought is to use a DBW enforced "soft" MAP limit at say 16psi MGP, and then a hard MAP limit of perhaps 17~18psi using the rotary mode spark/fuel cut based engine protection. That way if I hit the limit on the road, I'll instantly feel it and let off the gas, so it most likely won't reach the hard MAP limit.
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Subject is the gist of my question. I know and use the MAP limit engine protection features that are built into my G4+, which cuts spark & fuel when you hit your MAP limit. But since my car is equipped with a DBW throttle controlled by my G4+, I was thinking that having the protection feature pulling the DBW throttle in lieu of a spark/fuel cut when the MAP limit is breached would be a bit easier on the engine, as it would avoid possible backfires and going too lean.
Is what I'm suggesting even possible with the G4+ (Fury to be specific), and if so, how would it be setup?
I'm thinking if I could program the DBW throttle to be pulled back say 50% of wherever the throttle was at when the MAP limit was breached would effectively do the job. So let's say I hit my MAP limit at 75% throttle, the protection feature would override the accelerator pedal and reduce the throttle to 25%, and then go back to tracking the accelerator pedal position vs throttle position map after the MAP limit breach is cleared.
Cheers,
Pete
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On 2/13/2022 at 12:21 PM, essb00 said:
Your wish is already there in 'Modeled - Multi Fuel' fuel equation mode.
True, but that seems like an awful lot of additional tables to fill out & tuning work to do just to be able to fine-tune your stoich and fuel related parameters to handle pump gas that has an ethanol content of 8~10% the majority of the time, and the occasional tank of pure gasoline (E0) you might find in those few places its still available.
I'm a newbie at this, but my understanding is when you enable "Modeled - Multi-Fuel", you basically are doing a tune for pure gasoline (or E10, or whatever your primary fuel is), and then you need to do a tune for pure ethanol (or as close to that and you can get to that), and both tunes will need their lambda/AFR target tables, spark timing tables, boost control tables, etc. fully tuned before multi-fuel blending based on ethanol content % can work effectively.
What I'm looking for would be a simplified version of this based on 2D trim tables, that could tailor just the fuel specific parameters of stoich ratios, fuel density @20*C, fuel density temp coefficient, etc. as a function of ethanol content % within a narrow range, say 0% to 15%. In a case like that, you really wouldn't need to change lambda/AFR target tables, spark timing tables, boost control tables, etc..
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On 2/16/2022 at 5:31 AM, ae82ted said:
Thanks a lot for your tips. I've used the above suggested procedure the outcome seems good. However its just 180degree advance from the G4X bas map. Which the base map is 173 degree and now i have to dial up to 353 and getting the best result. Either injectors off and with engine running the timing map spot on.
I'm just curious if there is any more i can do to confirm i'm not 180 degree off..........with 173 offset i cant even see the timing mark. is it something goes wrong when we assembling the engine?
Thanks again.
If the procedure worked and your timing map is now spot on, you're good. It's literally impossible to assemble a rotary engine 180* off - the E-shaft, its keying and the stat gears basically make that impossible by design. The pulley/CAS wheel bolt pattern is also keyed in such that it will only fit one way on the E-shaft pulley boss, so unless someone molested those pulley bolt holes to "make it fit" another way, it's all good.
It's nice not having to deal with camshafts isn't it?
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Your main problem is you're hooking up the timing light to the front rotor/#1 LEADING plug; it should be connected to the TRAILING. Below is a cut & paste from the PCLink help file that talks to setting up & calibrating the triggers on a rotary. This procedure worked like a charm for me with my FD, running a G4+ Fury (wired in) ECU. Should be the same for the G4X. Cut & Paste follows...
The normal procedure used to set Trigger Calibration does not work so well on Rotary engines. A piston engine will run happily with ignition timing set to fire on TDC. This is not so for Rotary engines.
Note: Most Rotary engines have a timing mark on their front pulley at 20 degrees ATDC. It is the tuners responsibility to confirm that the engine has a mark at 20 degrees. If the mark is at some other position, that position should be substituted in the following procedure. Late 13B engines only have a 20 degrees ATDC mark. Early 13B engines have a 5 and 20 degrees ATDC mark. 12A Engines have a 0 and 20 degrees ATDC marks.
Rotary Trigger Calibration Procedure
The idea of this trigger calibration setup method is to end up with the leading spark firing at 5 degrees ATDC and the trailing spark firing at 20 degrees ATDC.
1.Disable the fuel injectors by selecting OFF as the Injection Mode under the Fuel heading. This will ensure that the engine will not attempt to start while the ignition timing is being calibrated.
2.Enter a value of -20 degrees in the Trailing Split Table in all the cells around the area where the engine will run during trigger calibration. It may be necessary to set the entire table to the same value.
3.In the Triggers->Calibrate menu, click Set Base Timing. The Set Base Timing window will open.
4.Enter 0 as the Lock Ignition Timing To value to be used (remember to push enter after changing the number).
5.Attach a timing light to fire off the TRAILING spark of the front rotor.
6.Crank the engine while watching for consistent ignition operation at a fixed crank position. Adjust the Offset until the ignition is firing exactly on the 20 degrees ATDC timing mark.
7.Select Done to close the Set Base Timing window.
8.Enable the fuel injectors by selecting the relevant Injection Mode.
9.Perform a STORE so that the Trigger Offset value is permanently retained. Remember that the Trailing Split table has been modified so be careful not to Store changes to that by accident.
10 Repeat the above procedure once the engine is running (ideally at about 2000 RPM) as it is hard to get accurate timing readings during cranking. To do this, repeat the above procedure without setting Injection Mode to OFF.
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Here in my part of the USA, pump gas that is readily obtainable is typically an E10 ethanol blended gasoline. According to my flex fuel sensor, the actual ethanol content in my fuel will vary from about 8%~10%, which appears to be a seasonally dependent figure - I'm observing that refiners put less ethanol in during the cold/winter months (8% or so), and more in the warm/summer months (up to 10%).
Given the above, I've set my fuel's stoich ratio in my G4+ Fury at 14.13 to 1, which I believe is the correct value for E10, and used the recommended gasoline values for all the other fuel related parameters (i.e., fuel density @20*C, fuel density temp coefficient, etc.). My car seems to be pretty happy with that setup, and the CL Lambda corrections are small, though I wonder if seasonal tweaking of my stoich ratio would improve it.
Since my fuel's ethanol content varies a little bit between seasons, would it be worthwhile to tweak my stoich ratio each season? For example, 14.13 for summer (E10) and 14.xx (E8-ish) for winter? Would this make much of any difference for the modeled fuel equation mode?
Next question probably belongs in the Wish List section, but it is it possible to setup a simple 2D table to grab Stoich Ratio as a function of % Ethanol Content? I'm thinking that would be useful in the case where you might be able to fill your tank with pure gasoline (E0) someplace, and have the ECU automatically adjust your stoich ratio for you (assumes a flex fuel sensor is fitted).
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Tim D - by any chance did you have the overrun fuel cut function enabled while tuning with the mixture map? Don't know if its related to your situation, but when I was using mixture map, I found that having the overrun fuel cut enabled would tend to skew my log data, and result in a veryinconsistent VE table when tuning with mixture map, even if I set conditional filters in the mixture map to ignore any data collected when the overrun fuel cut was active. So I only used mixture map with both the closed loop lambda and overrun fuel cut functions disabled.
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17 hours ago, Confused said:
Yes, it will interpolate between columns.
What you could do, though, is add one extra column before (at 7900) with your 7500 values - it will then only interpolate towards 0 between 7900 and 8000
Thanks, that confirms what I was assuming. Since I used up all 16 columns for my X axis, I can't add another column, but I can adjust the X axis RPM breakpoints. So now it goes from 0 to 6000 RPMs in 500 RPM increments, then 6000 - 8000 in 1000 RPM increments, which gets to 15 columns, and I made the last column 8100 RPMs for now. So I can use the 8100 RPM column to pull back throttle, and it can interpolate throttle between the 8000 & 8100 values.
8 hours ago, Dean said:Would the throttle oscillate too much then? ie. 0 throttle will drop the RPM quickly, then full throttle will increase the revs again etc. etc.
I've had good results with this setup for my e throttle. The throttle starts to close as I reach redline, then it holds steady even if the pedal is flat to the floor.
I can keep the wheels spinning even though the TP says 40% and boost is down to 11psi. If the rpm start to drop, the throttle starts to open more.
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That's a great point I hadn't considered, and thanks for sharing what worked for your setup. I haven't fully tuned this car on a dyno yet, but since it's a rotary, I'd expect peak power to fall somewhere in the neighborhood of 6500~7800 RPMs, given its current porting, turbo & exhaust setup. And since rotaries are pretty tolerant of high RPMs, phasing in a softer throttle based rev limit just past where the power peak starts dropping off, similar to your E-throttle map may be a better approach than the more abrupt pull-back I had in mind.
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I'm using a G4+ Fury in an FD RX7 with a DBW throttle. I'd like to use the E-throttle map to act as a rev limiter function, basically by pulling the throttle back to 0% (or near 0%) when the RPMs hit my red line (e.g. 8000RPMs), regardless of accel pedal position.
Currently I have the RPM (x-axis) set up from 0 to 8000 RPM, in 500RPM increments. So as I understand it, setting the throttle to 0% for the entire 8000RPM column would implement a throttle based rev limit at 8000RPM. My question is does the E-throttle table provide interpolated throttle values between the previous 7500 RPM column and the 8000 RPM column? If so, that would be undesirable, as for example at 7900RPM, and at an AP position of 100%, throttle position would be reduced to something close to 0% well before hitting my 8000RPM redline.
Would it be better to add a column at say 8050 RPMs, which would be set to all 0% throttle, and have the prior 8000RPM column track 1:1 with the AP position? That way if interpolation is happening, any AP position above 8000RPM would have its throttle position pulled back to near 0% after RPMs cross the 8000 RPM mark. Am I understanding this correctly?
Thanks in advance!
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Thanks again Adam, connecting to the ECU and making the changes live did the trick.
RX7 G4+ vs G4X (is it worth the upgrade)
in G4+
Posted
This free video from Evans Performance Academy gives a good rundown comparing the G4+ and G4X, should help inform your decision.
I'm also running a single turbo modified S6 FD on a G4+, and personally if I didn't have so many other things I needed to spend cash on to finish my FD, upgrading the G4+ to a G4X would be a no brainer. As you'll see in the Evans video, the additional processing speed basically improves everything the ECU does when compared to the G4+. G4X brings in a number of new features such as long term trims and custom programming flexibility with math channels too. As far as input/output support, I'm pretty sure they are the same between G4+ and G4X within the same model family, i.e., a G4+ Fury and G4X Fury will have the same number and types of I/O and use the same connectors/pin-outs. Which is great because it means you won't have to rewire your car to upgrade to a G4X.