Mazda 323 GTX 1986

[Rally Mazda]

Newbie questions/ thread

nearing the end of my winter rebuild on the rally car, i have gone full stand alone link ecu along with some other up grades along the way, but having issues getting the car to start. this is my first time doing anything like this and have mapping booked for Monday 8^th April – but ideally trying to start prior to mapping and bleed up coolant system ext before heading to my tuner. 

 

its very highly likely i have settings completely wrong and havent set up the base map correctly leading to my issues. 

Injector test – works fine

Ignition test – has spark

Can see crank signal

Cant see any spark when cranking though - done through push button switch to starter solenoid with a DI input to ecu – so cant do timing light check

Fuel pump on aux 1 – but have this bypassed to a switch currently to allow testing until aux 1 is correctly set up.

 

Engine spec,

Mx5/323 gtx block

323 gtx head

Td04 turbo

No mazda OEM sensors, MAF removed ext

Changes made;

RX8 yellow injectors DENSO # 195500-4450 inj 1-4

Zetec coil pack – wired ign 1 + 2

Zetec crank sensor – trigger 1

36-2 trigger wheel

Link IAT - temp 2

Link combined temp/pressure sensor – water Temp 1 for temp ANv1 pressure

Link combined temp/pressure sensor – oil – ANv 2 pressure, 1k ohm resistor between 5v feed and ANv4 on temp

Link can lambda – lambda not currently fitted or plugged in (advice from tuner)

3 port boost solenoid – an output 4

Link monsoon G4x ECU

Start signal push button to starter solenoid + Feed to DI2

 

thanks in advance for any help or advice received.

PC Datalog - 2024-04-2 7;30;27 pm.llgx changes to ign order + DI's + Outputs.pclx

[Laminar]

It would probably be helpful to do a trigger log. Click capture while you're cranking. Your RPM is showing up as intermittent which needs to be resolved before you can run. It may just be a matter of adjusting the arming threshold, but the trigger log will reveal more info.

You're set up for a cam wheel on Trigger 2 but you don't mention anything about a cam sensor and nothing shows up for trigger 2 in the log.

Your ignition is set to wasted spark, but your injection is sequential, which would require a cam sensor.

You only need to feed the start switch into the Link if you're using the Link to control your starter solenoid. The Link just watches for an RPM signal to know that the engine is cranking.

You also just set the start signal up as a generic input and latching is turned on, so it goes true the first time you press it, then stays true when you release the button. The next time you push it, it goes false. If you truly want the Link to control your starter, you'd go into Digital Inputs > Start Position and assign DI2 there, then configure the output to your starter solenoid relay in Chassis and Body > Starter Control.

You absolutely have to do a Triggers > Calibrate > Set Base Timing and find your Trigger Offset value. Either get a buddy to crank for you or hotwire a switch between B+ and the starter solenoid so you can crank it from where you can get a timing light on the crank pulley.

[Rally Mazda]

8 minutes ago, Laminar said:

It would probably be helpful to do a trigger log. Click capture while you're cranking. Your RPM is showing up as intermittent which needs to be resolved before you can run. It may just be a matter of adjusting the arming threshold, but the trigger log will reveal more info.

You're set up for a cam wheel on Trigger 2 but you don't mention anything about a cam sensor and nothing shows up for trigger 2 in the log.

Your ignition is set to wasted spark, but your injection is sequential, which would require a cam sensor.

You only need to feed the start switch into the Link if you're using the Link to control your starter solenoid. The Link just watches for an RPM signal to know that the engine is cranking.

You also just set the start signal up as a generic input and latching is turned on, so it goes true the first time you press it, then stays true when you release the button. The next time you push it, it goes false. If you truly want the Link to control your starter, you'd go into Digital Inputs > Start Position and assign DI2 there, then configure the output to your starter solenoid relay in Chassis and Body > Starter Control.

You absolutely have to do a Triggers > Calibrate > Set Base Timing and find your Trigger Offset value. Either get a buddy to crank for you or hotwire a switch between B+ and the starter solenoid so you can crank it from where you can get a timing light on the crank pulley.

thank you very much, i will try trigger log tonight after work - 3hrs and post up. 

intermittent rpm could that be trigger wheel - sensor not being aligned correctly? 

 

i have nothing on Trigger 2 this is not being used. 

 

injection - that is my error, i will change this. any recommendations on correct settings? 

i will remove the input as start solenoid relay is controlled from the push button 

i couldnt get the base timing confirmed as there is no spark when cracking (guessing this could be linked to intermittent rpm?)

 

thanks very much for the response, like i say i would ideally like to at least get a test start to allow bleeding up of the coolant ext 

 

 

[Laminar]

If you have injectors wired up to each of the 1-4 injector drivers, I'd go Multi-Point Group for the Injection Mode and select INJ1-4 for the Active Drives.

If you do Ignition > Ignition Test on 1 and 2 do you get any spark?

[Rally Mazda]

6 minutes ago, Laminar said:

If you have injectors wired up to each of the 1-4 injector drivers, I'd go Multi-Point Group for the Injection Mode and select INJ1-4 for the Active Drives.

If you do Ignition > Ignition Test on 1 and 2 do you get any spark?

perfect, thanks! 

 

yes i do on both ign1 and 2 i get full spark on each line when in test. just nothing when on crank 

 

[Rally Mazda]

7 hours ago, Laminar said:

If you have injectors wired up to each of the 1-4 injector drivers, I'd go Multi-Point Group for the Injection Mode and select INJ1-4 for the Active Drives.

If you do Ignition > Ignition Test on 1 and 2 do you get any spark?

see attached new file with changes and log - i think i have logged trig 1 correctly? 

 

i am now questioning integrity of my timing light as when trying to perform the calibration/ set base the car was back firing once after 3/5s but the timing light is not flashing at all  - the only other car here is a diesel so i cant verify the light is broken i shall try get a replacement tomorrow 

changes to injection + trig 2 remove.pclx PC Datalog - 2024-04-3 9;12;21 pm.llgx

[Vaughan]

Your trigger settings are wrong, it never syncs properly.

To confirm do you only have a 36-2 trigger wheel on the crank connected to Trigger 1 and nothing connected to trigger 2?

How many wires does your trigger sensor have? 2 or 3?

Do a trigger scope and attach it here, ecu controls -> Trigger scope and then press capture once the engine is cranking and keep cranking until the trace shows up, save it and attach here.

Your more recent log does seem to show it syncing but I still want to see an actual trigger scope.

You can test your timing light by doing an ignition test as this will just continually trigger the coil without needing to crank the car

[Rally Mazda]

7 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Your trigger settings are wrong, it never syncs properly.

To confirm do you only have a 36-2 trigger wheel on the crank connected to Trigger 1 and nothing connected to trigger 2?

How many wires does your trigger sensor have? 2 or 3?

Do a trigger scope and attach it here, ecu controls -> Trigger scope and then press capture once the engine is cranking and keep cranking until the trace shows up, save it and attach here.

ah okay - knew it was defo something ive not done correct 

 

confirm is a 36-2 trigger wheel and it is a 2 wire sensor. 

 *edit* - yes only trigger 1 in use nothing on 2 

 

thanks i wasnt sure how to capture the trigger scope will grab a log now and upload. give me 2 minutes! 

 

thanks for your rapid response 

 

7 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Your trigger settings are wrong, it never syncs properly.

To confirm do you only have a 36-2 trigger wheel on the crank connected to Trigger 1 and nothing connected to trigger 2?

How many wires does your trigger sensor have? 2 or 3?

Do a trigger scope and attach it here, ecu controls -> Trigger scope and then press capture once the engine is cranking and keep cranking until the trace shows up, save it and attach here.

see attached trigger scope 

Trigger Scope - 2024-04-3 9;45;04 pm.llgx

yes think timing light is goosed - as on test function it wont flash, i know there is spark as a spare plug held to the block is sparking away lovely 

[Vaughan]

that scope looks like you clicked capture before you started cranking instead of while you were cranking but it caught some teeth right at the end.

Change your Trigger 1 arming voltage table 500RPM cell to 0.2V as your tooth voltage is pretty low.

[Rally Mazda]

5 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

that scope looks like you clicked capture before you started cranking instead of while you were cranking but it caught some teeth right at the end.

Change your Trigger 1 arming voltage table 500RPM cell to 0.2V as your tooth voltage is pretty low.

your correct- my bad! see new scope with the 0.2v arming change made prior to scope 

Trigger Scope - 2024-04-3 10;06;40 pm.llgx

[Vaughan]

That's looking a lot happier and I can see you have the sensor wired the correct way around, it should spark correctly while cranking now.

[Laminar]

Once that Trigger Offset is set 

[Rally Mazda]

Just now, Vaughan said:

That's looking a lot happier and I can see you have the sensor wired the correct way around, it should spark correctly while cranking now.

Perfect - thanks for your help. will try get my hands on a timing light that works tomorrow! its currently 2220hrs here so will try again tomorrow to get timing set correctly. will keep everyone updated! 

[Rally Mazda]

evening gents - i have now lost my trigger scope but can still see RPM! 

 

now very very confused lol attached latest log and file for reference 

PC Datalog - 2024-04-4 9;00;19 pm.llgx injection change save.pclx

[Laminar]

I see a dwell and ignition angle being calculated, I see a steady RPM, I see an injection pulsewidth. 

Your trigger offset is still 0, you'll need to set that with your timing light. At that point you should at least get some pops and bangs when you crank. Timing may be way off now. Are the plugs wet?

[Vaughan]

Your PC Log shows that it is trying to fire the coils and injectors. To get the trigger scope runtimes you need to use the ECU Controls -> Trigger SCope function and click capture while the engine is cranking.

[Rally Mazda]

35 minutes ago, Laminar said:

I see a dwell and ignition angle being calculated, I see a steady RPM, I see an injection pulsewidth. 

Your trigger offset is still 0, you'll need to set that with your timing light. At that point you should at least get some pops and bangs when you crank. Timing may be way off now. Are the plugs wet?

Yeah been trying to adjust tonight, none of my timing lights are working with the wasted spark/ zetec

 

I've just pulled the plugs and yeah I've soaked them fml! Looks like it'll be a winch onto the trailer until my tuner sets her up for me

35 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Your PC Log shows that it is trying to fire the coils and injectors. To get the trigger scope runtimes you need to use the ECU Controls -> Trigger SCope function and click capture while the engine is cranking.

Well that's good then. 

 

Yeah I tried doing as I did last night but couldn't get a scope from it tonight 

[Vaughan]

17 minutes ago, Rally Mazda said:

I've just pulled the plugs and yeah I've soaked them fml! Looks like it'll be a winch onto the trailer until my tuner sets her up for me

Injection is usually turned off during timing calibration for this reason.

[Rally Mazda]

15 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Injection is usually turned off during timing calibration for this reason.

Will disable tomorrow when attempting 

[Vaughan]

Will also crank over faster and get better spark with the spark plugs out making it easier to get it timed before the battery runs out of juice

[Rally Mazda]

hi folks, 

 

update - found weak spark to be not earthing the ignition coil- this is now earthed and i have found offset to be 177 degrees. however i still havent had more than a splutter RE starting - i have attached log. 

 

 

also - when i go to scope trigger one as i did the other night, i now can not see the trigger making a graph at all, any idea? 

PC Datalog - 2024-04-5 11;09;26 pm.llgx

[Adamw]

On 4/3/2024 at 10:51 PM, Rally Mazda said:

Zetec coil pack

4 hours ago, Rally Mazda said:

found weak spark to be not earthing the ignition coil

A Zetec coil pack doesnt even have a ground does it?  

This is a dumb coil, have you fitted an ignitor?

[Rally Mazda]

4 hours ago, Adamw said:

A Zetec coil pack doesnt even have a ground does it?  

This is a dumb coil, have you fitted an ignitor?

It's giving me a much much better spark after I removed the rubber I put on the bracket spacing the coil pack. 

 

I haven't fitted and igniter no? 

[Adamw]

The Zetec coil is a "dumb coil", it has no electronics in it for switching the high current/high voltage primary.  The ECU cant control this directly, for a dumb coil you need an ignitor wired in between the ecu and coil.  So you will need to add a 2 or 3 channel ignitor, or you can swap to a more modern smart coil which has the ignitor built in.   

2ch igniter example is Bosch 0227100200 https://www.autodoc.co.uk/bosch/668873

Wasted spark smart coil (subaru) https://www.autodoc.co.uk/beru/13648288

Wasted spark smart coil (VW) https://www.autodoc.co.uk/bosch/757956

 

[Rally Mazda]

1 hour ago, Adamw said:

The Zetec coil is a "dumb coil", it has no electronics in it for switching the high current/high voltage primary.  The ECU cant control this directly, for a dumb coil you need an ignitor wired in between the ecu and coil.  So you will need to add a 2 or 3 channel ignitor, or you can swap to a more modern smart coil which has the ignitor built in.   

2ch igniter example is Bosch 0227100200 https://www.autodoc.co.uk/bosch/668873

Wasted spark smart coil (subaru) https://www.autodoc.co.uk/beru/13648288

Wasted spark smart coil (VW) https://www.autodoc.co.uk/bosch/757956

 

Thanks, didn't know I needed this!! Damn. 

 

This is the pack I currently have fitted 

 

https://motorsport-electronics.co.uk/product/ford-zetec-coil/

 

Will look at the subaru one and hopefully manage to get something locally sourced