Trigger setup : Honda 3 cylinder engine

[Mach]

I'm running Honda "E07Z" engine(3 cylinders, T/C, 0.66L) by piggy back.

PCLink shows the same RPM as the tachometer., but it's not stable.

Is there any solutions or available trigger setup?

The signal looks like nothing wrong during observation with triggerscope and oscilloscope.

Configuration : 3+1 tooth cam trigger, sequential direct ignition.

Log files and present setup are below:

PC datalog_e07.llgxTriggerScopeLog_e07.llgx

[Adamw]

I dont see any way to support that trigger pattern presently, it will likely need a new trigger decoder written.  With 3+1 on the cam it shouldnt need the trigger 2 signal at all.  You could try Daihatsu copen trigger mode which is also 3+1 on the cam but the "+1" tooth is much closer to the normal tooth so Im not sure if it will work.  

[Mach]

18 hours ago, Adamw said:

I dont see any way to support that trigger pattern presently, it will likely need a new trigger decoder written.  With 3+1 on the cam it shouldnt need the trigger 2 signal at all.  You could try Daihatsu copen trigger mode which is also 3+1 on the cam but the "+1" tooth is much closer to the normal tooth so Im not sure if it will work.  

Thanks for your advice.

I tried Daihatsu Copen trigger mode,but unfortunately it didn't work.
(It seems JB-DET has 4+1 cam tooth.)

Please let me ask you one more question.
I don't understand "Number of gaps" well.

If the 3+1 tooth is regarded as 6-1-1 tooth, is it wrong to think as follows?
 Tooth count : 6
 Missing teeth : 1
 Number of gaps : 2

[Adamw]

You are right about the Daihatsu is 4+1.  

6-1-1 would be a different pattern than 3+1.  The two gaps will be 360 deg apart.  

In the pic below 3+1 would give a signal like the green teeth.  6-1-1 would be the red teeth.

[Mach]

OK, it is easy for me to understand.

Thank you, Adamw.

[Mach]

Hello.

I am considering to input Ne(3 pulse/720 deg) on trigger 1, and input cam pulse 1x externally.

So I tried setting it as Multi-tooth, ToothCount=3, but RPM was still not got correctly.

It's displayed 1.5 times higher than actual.

For the test, I changed the toothcount settings and got the following results;

 ToothCount=4 -> 0.75 times (lower than actual)
 ToothCount=2 -> 1.5 times (higher than actual)

These results make sense, but I have no idea why it's 1.5 times higher when ToothCount=3 is set.

 

What is the reason for this?

TriggerScope_multitooth.llgx

[Adamw]

I just done a quick test and I think there is something wrong with 3 teeth on cam mode.  I will ask engineering to have a look at it tomorrow.  Try setting multitooth position to crank and tooth count to 6 and it should work.  Note howver injector and ignition timing wont be correct with sync set to none.  

 

[Mach]

I would appreciate it.
As far as I know, it is working correctly on G4+.

And I tested 6 teeth on crank mode, but a quarter of rpm is indicated.
I think it should be set to 3/2 teeth, so 3 teeth cam signal might be unavailable as a trigger at this time.

[Adamw]

I have messaged you a test firmware with the multi-tooth 3 on cam trigger fixed.  Please give this a try.

To install this, open the firmware update tool as normal, but use the browse button to navigate to the .img file I provided.  

[Mach]

So fast!

I'll try it later. Thank you very much.

You don't have plans to support 3+1 cam tooth, do you?

[Vaughan]

10 minutes ago, Mach said:

You don't have plans to support 3+1 cam tooth, do you?

If you can send us a good triggerscope and we should be able to get a mode in the software for it. Probably best to remove the spark plugs before capturing the triggerscope so that it's not affected by compression. Alternatively if you could measure the angle of the extra tooth relative to the other two on either side of it, is it exactly halfway between? If it is halfway between and the other 3 teeth are evenly spaced then we won't need a triggerscope to figure out the angles of each tooth.

The other useful piece of information would be the location of cyl1 tdc on the compression stroke relative to the teeth so that we can try and set the mode up to have an offset of 0.

[Mach]

Really? Great Link team!
The extla tooth exists exactly halfway between,and other 3 teeth are evenly spaced.
Cyl1 TDC on the compression stroke is at the moment when three consecutive pulses have passed.
(see grafic in the #1 post. indicated by yellow vertical lines.)
Is it not necessary for me to send you a triggerscope?
If you need other logs or informations, please tell me.

[Adamw]

@Mach The original osciloscope of the trigger you posted above, can you confirm that this engine only has just the one sensor on the cam?  Am I right the signal you show on trigger 2 is being generated by the factory ecu and would not be present if the factory ecu wasnt in place?

Also, can you confirm there is no VVT on this engine?

[Mach]

@Adamw

>can you confirm that this engine only has just the one sensor on the cam?
Yes. There are no other sensors on cam and crank.

>Am I right the signal you show on trigger 2 is being generated by the factory ecu and would not be present if the factory ecu wasnt in place?
You're right. It is only available in piggy-back.

>can you confirm there is no VVT on this engine?
No VVT engine.

P.S. I tried the fixed software you sent me and that indicates the RPM correctly.

Thank you,

[Adamw]

@Mach  I will send you a beta version of PC Link to try which supports the E07Z trigger.  Install this, then upgrade the ecu to the firmware included in this version.  This has firmware has a new trigger mode in the list "Honda E07Z".  Only the cam sensor needs to be connected to trig1, nothing connected to trigger 2.  

Please try running the engine, verify RPM is stable and realistic.  Trigger offset will need to be checked/set with a timing light.  If it all works ok, please report back what final trigger offset was required for accurate timing and we will add that into the trigger code so that the final publicly available version will have near 0 offset.

 

 

[Mach]

@Adamw

Amazing! Thank you very much.
I'll try it out this weekend and report back.

[Mach]

@Adamw

I have tested the E07Z trigger mode and confirmed that it all works OK.
RPM is stable and no trigger error has occurred.

The trigger calibrate value is as below :
 -Trigger Offset : 27.0 deg
 -Ignition Delay : 80 microsec

I really appreciate your support.

[Adamw]

Thanks.  Keep in the back of your mind, later when we release the next public release firmware version this 27 deg offset will be built in, so you will need to confirm timing again when you next update.  The trigger offset should be zero in the final firmware.  

[Mach]

Hi, I have been running E07Z trigger mode for 2 weeks, and it is working fine at high(8000)RPM.
Thanks again.

However, I have an issue.
It is hard to startup the engine even when it is warmed up. (Need to run the starter a few times)
At first I thought it was because of cold start setting, but i found out that injection and ignition pulses were not being output (or  missing) due to a trigger error during cranking.
Is there any way to solve it?

TriggerScopeLog_e07z.llgx PC Datalog -e07z_egstartup.llgx

[Adamw]

I done some quick testing on the bench and fuel and Ignition happen as soon as the ECU has seen the group of 3 teeth.  So I dont think it can be improved, the engine will need to turn a max of 720deg before it has synced.

Typical start up below.  You can see all 3 injectors squirt together as soon as the crank starts turning (pre-crank prime), Then as soon as the group of three teeth occur the ecu has synced and ign 1 sparks shortly after. 

[Mach]

Thank you for testing.
I have also checked again. As you said, the crank starts turning, Pre-Crank Prime fuel(*) and the 1st ignition & injection work right.

However, the 2nd and 3rd ignition & injection events are missing actually.
After that, it work once every three times (2160deg).

(expand)

I tested more than 10 times and all with the same result,so I think this missfire makes harder to startup.
Is this a hardware issue?

*:I have the Pre-Crank Prime fuel set to off so am I right this is the First Crank Prime? I had thought that First Crank Prime isn't asynchronous fuel.

[Adamw]

Sorry, I edited my last response after looking closer at your scope.  

So does this only happen at start up?  But when the engine is running you have correct spark?  Can you attach your map again.

[Mach]

Yes, it only happens at start up.
Once after starting up, it has correct spark and I can feel the excellent performance of LINK.

Sometimes it does not start with dozen times of cranking.
After that, turning the key off and restart the ECU, it may start.
But I am not sure if this is due to the restart.

I attached the map.
One more thing I concern is that I can't find the Math Block in this test firmware.

0515.pclx

[Adamw]

I will PM you a new firmware to try.  The firmware engineers believe they have found the issue with the trigger.  My bench test didnt show the error as I was using constant 200RPM.  When tested on your engine and the RPM suddenly slows down during cranking it causes one of the trigger tests to timeout and fail.  

[Mach]

I've tested the new firmware but it also didn't work...
This time, the ignition pulse would advance one tooth per one cycle. Probably E07Z was replaced so I selected "Unused" trigger pattern.

Trigger Scope didn't work so I attached the oscilloscope.

(expand)

And the hidden math block was found.
Thanks,