3SGTE Trigger Issues, no Spark (dwell) during cranking

[Runaway]

Hi fellow Link owners.

I have an issue with the 3SGTE Gen 3 (94-99) that won`t start after changing the trigger setup. 

The Car is COP`s and was running the original distributor (with the original Triggers) with no issues at all. 
As the distributor signals have higher deviations when running hot, I changed the Trigger Setup.

I´m currently running the 3S-GE VVTi Crank Trigger (or also 3SGTE Gen4/5 Crank triggger) with the 36-2 cranck whell and original VR-sensor. 
For the Cam I used Racer X Cam Trigger Setup. https://racerxfabrication.com/mr2-celica/ignition/cam-trigger-kit

The Crank VR trigger is connected to Trigger 1 (NE) and Ground

The Cam Hall Sensor is connected to 5V, Trigger 2 (G1) and Ground

Now here comes the problem. If I test the coils separately they work fine. But if I cranck the car the dwell remains 0 and the car won`t start as it has no spark. 
The Trigger Signals look fine to me so far, but the trigger 1 Status is always jumping from "test gap" to "verify gap".

What I`m I doing wrong. Do you have any ideas?

Attached the tune, trigger log and log from starting.

(I also used only using the Cranck trigger, giving the Cam trigger 12V supply, but nothing changed)

PC Datalog - 2023-11-3 7;10;34 pm_starten_mit_mit_sprit.llgx TriggerScopeLog.llgx läuft nicht..pclx

[Adamw]

The crank sensor is wired with incorrect polarity.  Swap the +/- wires at the sensor plug should solve it.  

[Runaway]

Hi Adam, 

thanks for the help. Changing the polarity of the sensor helped, now we`ve got some spark during crancking. 
Unfortunately the car won`t start. We have set the base timing to 10 Degrees (with either -35 or 325 degrees offset).

Nevertheless the car won`t want start it will either with 360 degree turn or not. We had backfires either way.
I checked everyhting and the rpm signal looks odd. for the first 2seconds I`m having a clear rpm signal where you can see that it is crancking, after that the RPM signal stays flat at roughly 230rpm. I would assume that it can`t fire because of this flatness, so the ignition will be off.

I think there is still an error in the trigger settings, but I can`t find it. It would be great if you could help again.

TriggerScopeLog_timeout_test.llgx PC Datalog - 2023-11-17 5;17;46 pm_error_custom_trigger.llgx Pascal_custom_trigger_last_day.pclx

[David Ferguson]

Have you verified the 10 deg timing with a timing light?  Are you sure the TDC mark is correct?   Have you fitted fresh plugs, or at least checked to see if they are fouled.

Have you tried adding more fuel?

[Runaway]

Yes of cause. The 10 deg TDC timing are verified with a timing light and the TDC Mark is correct. With the old trigger system (in the distributor) the TDC mark was verified. Plugs are fresh (1500km). The war was running 3 weeks ago, I was just changing the trigger system.

The cold start of the car was also fine before changing the trigger system. But yes I also tried to vary the amount of fuel injected by adding and substracing. Nothing happend. I think the issue is within the trigger system. The RPM signal is just not normal.

[Adamw]

No, the trigger looks fine in the most recent log/scope.  

 

2 hours ago, Runaway said:

I checked everyhting and the rpm signal looks odd. for the first 2seconds I`m having a clear rpm signal where you can see that it is crancking, after that the RPM signal stays flat at roughly 230rpm. I would assume that it can`t fire because of this flatness, so the ignition will be off.

This is normal.  The RPM value that is shown in a log when the engine is running normally is updated every crank tooth, but averaged over 1 TDC event (This is user adjustable but 1 is default).  When the engine first starts cranking however (before it has seen the cam signal to sync), it doesnt know where TDC is so the RPM is not filtered/averaged.  The RPM for up to the first 2 crank revolutions will be more erratic as it is updated every tooth with no filtering. 

 

 

Everything looks fine from the ecu perspective in the log, it has all the info it needs for fuel and spark.  There is no injector PW, but I assume you had fuel injection mode set to off when you done that log?

If it's backfiring then either a spark is occurring at the wrong time or a valve is open at the wrong time.  Since you say only the trigger has changed since it was running I guess we can assume the valve timing is ok for now.  You say you have a OEM beams trigger wheel and sensor, so your offset of -35 or 335 doesnt seem right - assuming the sensor is mounted in the stock location.  The stock offset on these are normally around 145, but in this case since you have a non OEM cam trigger that could be 360 different - so I would expect the offset to be either 145 or -215.  Oddly that is exactly 180deg difference from what you have set, so that may indicate you possibly have a coil mis-wired or something like that.  

[koracing]

On a 4th gen 3SGTE trigger (OEM 36-2 crank wheel and COP) if that is what you're using i have to run an offset of 144.  How are you verifying the TDC mark while cranking with a timing light on your new trigger setup?  Where are you putting the timing light inductive clamp?

[Runaway]

Solved the Issue.The timing light was too close to the second COP and was "firing" for cylinder 2 not cylinder 1. Hence the 180 degree offset. 
I`m now running an offset of 144 as you mentioned Kris. But it took some time to figure the issue out. 
 

[koracing]

You should be using a spark plug wire in the end of the cyl1 coil and onto the spark plug with the timing light inductive clamp on it, not using the wires that are plugged into the cylinder 1 coil connector.  Timing can definitely be off if you're using the trigger wires for the coil instead of the coil output.

[Runaway]

Thank for all the Support from you guys. The timing light was picking up the signal from the 2nd coil eventhough it was connected to the first. 
I realised it after unplugging the 2nd coil.

The car is now dynoed and tuned and works very well, but the closed loop lambda correction is not working and I have no clue. I think I`m just overseeing something, but I can`t find it. Maybe you can help me out here.

abholung_270124_1.pclx

[Adamw]

Your CLL status says it was locked out due to MAP delta at the time you last saved the map.  This only gives a single snapshot however so may not be your only issue.  The Closed loop lambda 1 status runtime should normally tell you what is going on.