Volvo S60R 5 cylinder dual VVT trigger supported?

[koracing]

Wondering if anyone at Link can tell me if the 2004 S60R 5 cylinder 2.5L Turbo (I believe that's what it is) cam trigger wheels are supported by link for the dual VVT functions and sequential injection/igntion? 

I have a customer with a car interested in fully gutting all factory wiring and going to a Link for engine management if feasible.  I may end up taking an oscilloscope out to the customer's car and trying to capture the trigger patterns off fo the current cam and crank sensors with it running on stock ecu, or somehow capturing with a link ecu minimally/temporarily wired in.

[Vaughan]

Will need a scope to be sure, if it has a regular multi/missing crank pattern then there is a good chance we can just use a cam pulse window for the cams.

[koracing]

I will confirm - but I believe it's 60-2 crank.

[koracing]

Confirmed visually on a flywheel 60-2 crank trigger.  Cam tooth scopes were both the same tooth pattern of 4 uneven positive spikes and 4 even spaced negative spikes.  

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/l0a88hiz95scfhb0qdm9q/VolvoS60R_CamPositionScope.jpg?rlkey=jcqob9bgo03e3zwt8o1ld653l&dl=0

Is this a standard pattern matching some other vehicle?

The cam and crank position sensors were all 3 wire - 5v, gnd, and signal - but the waveform doesn't "look" like a hall signal as I'm accustomed to.  Mabye lack of a pullup on my oscilloscope would be the cause?  This was taken while the engine was idling on the stock ecu.

Scouring the internet some more found a couple pics of the sensor wheels on the cams:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/aopkj6ke9fo297dy6zirc/P2-Rear-Cam-Positioning.jpg?rlkey=5n6avhganrnynynrov7l6s41f&dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/mdwyo4cwzhac25r8yba6l/camsensor_wheels-S60R.jpg?rlkey=24bbpcdqj6vgt9usykhpyv09t&dl=0

Please advise if this looks doable for full vvt control with Link, or if I need to go back with a link and wire up trigger/di inputs and power and ground to capture a cranking scope in the link software to be certain.

[Vaughan]

Crank trigger pattern should be no problem. The cams however could prove very annoying given the sensor type with the erratic positive and negative spikes. Are the positive spikes on the cams getting above 1.8v? They look like they aren't and there is no zero crossing to rely on for normal reluctor style control.

Is it possible to fit more generic hall sensors to get nice square waves on the cams? Also how far do the cams swing? Depending on where the teeth are relative to the crank you should be able to cam window it with a regular hall style signal.

[Adamw]

I think the scope capture looks odd because ch1 is set with ac coupling - so effectively the DC offset is removed and you only see the transition.  

Assuming it is a B5254T4 engine then below is probably what you have (From https://rotkee.com/en/wavebase/good-timing-ckp-cmp-signal-volvo-v70-2000-2007?brand=203&engine=1695)

 

This would work with multi-tooth/missing, 60-2, sync tooth 1, cam level sync.  This scope was taken at idle and you can see the yellow spark occurs at about the 15th tooth, so offset will likely be around 90 or -270.  

[koracing]

Thanks so much for your input @Vaughan and @Adamw It is indeed a B5254T4 engine.  I agree I probably didn't set up the scope properly (I used autoset, and it's been a couple years since I used this/any oscope <rusty>), and I believe they are hall sensors and should look more like what you have pictured @Adamw.  If you look at the rising spikes as rising edges to the next falling spike as a falling edge it would look just like your scope if it maintained the dc offset.  The crank position sensor also looked like a 3 wire sensor, however, so it may also be hall, or extra grounded reluctor I suppose.  I feel confident at least I can sell this customer a Link Xtreme and it will work for operating the motor and VVT system. I'll post a base map back to this thread once we get to the point of startup and idling this winter. 

This car also has a Haldex controller for the 4wd system - and I found an old thread with some settings for the Vipec on an Audi with Haldex to control it directly via the stepper outputs (Aux5-8).  I'm leaning toward having the customer get a manual regulator from SQS Racing so he doesn't have to use a laptop to make changes to it (the whole goal of going aftermarket with this car is to make things "simpler".  

My next task is to create a pinout spreadsheet for the OEM ecu so I have some wire color references as well as a starting point to create a pinmap for the Link.

[koracing]

So for this project I'm also planning a Razor PDM, 7" MXG dash, and a CAN Keypad.  I personally like the 3 lights on the Grayhill pads to indicate 3 levels of selection - not sure how that would be done on the Link buttons - maybe various colors? 

I want to be able to use the keypad for things like a modern car ignition on, then start and stop engine, HVAC blower fan on/speed (3 levels), ac request possibly, boost levels (3 or 4 levels), headlights, parking lights, aux rally lights, etc. as well as stuff I'm sure I haven't thought of yet (power windows? rad fan on override?). 

Can the ignition on/start/stop be one button on a can keypad?  Same question for climate blower on/speeds.

Are there issues currently trying to run a 15 button grayhill keypad or would I be better off with the Link 12 button key pad?  I'm not sure if 8 buttons will do everything the customer wants. 

It looks like the Haltech are just the grayhill keypads, any issues using them with Link?

Also open to suggestions.  Car is going to be for rally use (but who doesn't want to be comfortable on stage?). 

[Laminar]

5 hours ago, koracing said:

Can the ignition on/start/stop be one button on a can keypad? 

I'm interested in this, too. When the Starter control is set to Touch, there doesn't appear to be integration of the brake pedal like all OEM implementations I've seen, just Neutral/Park, Clutch, and Speed lockouts. If I was doing Touch style start/stop, I'd prefer the brake be integrated. I'm sure it could be set as the neutral/park input, but I'm worried that might throw off overrun, gearshift, blipping, and other calcs if the ECU believes it's in neutral every time you touch the brake.

I'd like No Brake + Start button = Ignition relay on, Brake + Start button = Ignition relay on and Starter sequence initiated, Running + Start button = engine kill + ignition relay off.

[koracing]

If there's a brake input, we could probably do a virtual aux for the neutral/park where RPM is below 500rpm as well as brake pressed (i.e. engine off).  

I'm conetmplating just putting an old school momentary for starter on the car for simplicity as well as an old school ignition on to avoid powerup coms issues with the keypad and PDM.  Not sure how much of a worry that really is.

[Adamw]

For a CAN keypad to switch on the "ignition relay", the keypad and PDM would have to remain powered up all the time.  In OEM type BCM's they either have some old school mechanical contacts in the "start button" that powers up the BCM when pressed, or the BCM has some type of very low draw standby mode that watches the start button.  It wouldnt be easy to replicate with a motorsport PDM and typical CAN keypad.  Usually there would be "master switch" to power things up.  

You can certainly do things like increment count with each press and roll back to off after say press 4 to do for example off/low/med/high or whatever with either keypad.  

The Grayhill keypads just have 3 LED's for each button, you can turn these on/off independently to indicate 3 or 4 different states but they are fixed color (order time option) and fixed brightness and cant be made to flash easily.  I believe brightness is programable but the Link PDM or ECU doesnt yet have that functionality built-in.

The Blink LED's are a bit more flexiable, can be switched through 6 solid colors and 6 flashing colors.  Button LED's and the backlight brightness can be user set to different fixed brightness via the ECU "find devices" tool, and backlight can also be switched with an ecu input.  

A couple of other considerations; The blink uses laser-etched plastic inserts for "labels" - so probably less range, possibly a little extra cost, but longer life, Vs the grayhill just uses decals, so these could be considered pro's or cons I guess. The grayhill one's as a general comment are more compact for the same number of buttons, so can be easier to find the real estate.  The Blink buttons have a deeper press movement and more tactile feel, and coupled with the bigger size I find you often dont even need to look at, compared to my old car with the grayhill it takes a bit more of a stare to make sure you actually did hit the switch when racing.  

 

 

 

[koracing]

Ok I think a standard switch panel with a few items on it like Momentary starter button, Ignition power, ECU, and PDM power may be appropriate.  I'd probably still set up a CAN button to kill engine (stop switch input).

The other thing I like about the Haltech 15 button is it includes all the labels instead of charging $4.80 each for them.  Also the Link keypads are on back order.  Is there an estimate on the backorder?