trigger input issues with crank

[chasekirkland]

im working with a v44 on a vw 16 valve. ABA bottom with a 16 valve head. Im trying to set everything up correctly. i have all the sensors wired and working but the crank trigger. im using the factory crank input VR style and the distributor hall for trigger 2. I can get trigger 2 to change from no to yes but nothing from the crank. ive changed everything i can think of and i still cant get a pickup from the crank. No rpm or change to yes. 

Also will i get spark from only trigger 2 or does it need to see a crank input to fire the coil? ive already turned the injectors off so i wont have that issue.

 

thanks   Chase 

[Simon]

Ideally at this point you would put a scope on to the trigger input to see if you have a signal from the sensor.

I'm assuming you have the triggers configured correctly for the VR sensor and the correct tooth count 

[chasekirkland]

thanks for the reply Simon. I actually figured it out late last night. The Harness that i got with the V44 was pinned wrong. the input for trig 1 and trig 2 was flipped. I swapped pins at the harness and now i have both triggers reading and switching to yes with the RPM finally reading. Now ill have to get the timing setup. I have spark at the plugs but i cant get the timing light to pick it up. I have shock proof wires so i wonder if they are too thick to read or have a low charge on the battery? Can u shoot me a quick setup on the triggers and ignition so i know i have it setup correct? i want to make sure i have the settings correct when using a 4 window hall distributor and VR crank pickup.

 

thanks  Chase  

[Simon]

Are the windows in the distributor different sizes? (2 short 2 long?) and I'm assuming 60-2 on the crank.

What coils are you using as many of the VAG coils did not have igniters built in and it might be that you need an external igniter. Currently the coils could be limited to 2Amps and in turn giving a very weak spark.

 

 

 

[chasekirkland]

Correct the crank is a 60-2 but i think all the windows are the same size. Im running a single coil, cap and rotor style distributor . ive set the motor on TDC and commanded the coil to fire and im getting spark on #1 plug wire. im sure my issue is how to setup the ecu to use the 4 window hall sensor correctly with the 60-2 crank trigger. I need to figure out how to let the trigger #2 know where TDC  #1 is and then fire on the 3 other windows on wheel. Just for fun ive pulled out all the plug wires and installed spark plugs to all of them and cranked the motor over just to see spark. i seem to get spark on #2 and #3 than the others and hardly ever on #1. 

thank you for your time  

Chase 

i just measured the distributor windows. They are all the same size and spacing

[Adamw]

4 evenly spaced teeth in the distributor are not suitable as a sync.  For a Sync there needs to be something unique in the pattern that happens only once every 720 degs.  Your best option will be to remove 3 teeth from the distributor, leaving just one.

Also as per Simon's earlier reply it sounds like your coil needs an ignitor - you cant drive a "dumb" coil direct from the ECU.

[chasekirkland]

ok thank you. Ill try that since i have a few extra distributors laying around.

The coil im using has a built in igniter. oem part. 

[chasekirkland]

ok so i cut 3 teeth from the dist. and still nothing. Im still getting spark from the coil to the dist. but at random. The timing light is on #1 and still not a single flash.

 

 

[Simon]

Are you seeing a stable RPM signal and no trigger errors? 

Can you measure the resistance between the coil positive and the signal input. This will confirm if it has a built in igniter. Many OEMs had the igniter in the ECU not at the coil or external.

[chasekirkland]

i am getting trigger errors on 1 while cranking.  The RPM rate- rpm/sec lights up red and will count trigger 1 errors probably every revolution.

coil im using is from a 95-98 vw jetta 2.0l motor. i can see the igniter under the coil.  .978 k ohms from power to signal 

6N0905104 here is the part number.

[Simon]

If its clocking a trigger error each revolution that would indicate its not happy. This can be an error from either trig 1 or 2 as it uses both signal to determine an error. 

I would expect trigger settings much like below. 

 

 

[chasekirkland]

This is the same as ive got everything selected. Only thing i dont see on trigger 2 is the SYNC MODE.  That is not listed under trigger 2 however under trigger setup there is SYNC PULSE ans SYNC LEVEL. Ive tried changing them without any luck.....

im not sure what version is on this VIPEC ecu as i have not updated anything. im sure that has nothing to do with it though. Maybe the crank wheel is damaged in a spot causing an issue. Ill check that out. ive changed sensors as well as distributors just to make sure its not something stupid.  

Thanks again for your help to both of u.

 

would it just be better to ditch the dizzy distributor and install a cam sensor with coil on plug and waste spark? i can do that too if need be/ easier/ better.

 

[Adamw]

Can you attach your map please.

[chasekirkland]

Rabbit 16v turbo.pcl

hope i did that right?

[Simon]

Think we might be battling a firmware to VTS miss match you are on super old firmware.

First step will be to get 4.10.2 firmware in to the ECU.

 

 

 

[chasekirkland]

copy. thank you. Will do and report back 

[chasekirkland]

Updated. same issue

[Adamw]

Can you do a short PC Log of it cranking and also post a copy of your most recent map.  Here is a video how to set up and run the PC Log - this is for a G4+ but you will find the procedure is similar for the V series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_P1LRANeO4A

 

[chasekirkland]

Here is the most updated map along with a log of cranking showing both triggers and rpm while cranking with no spark ever leaving the coil.

Thanks    

Chase

 

Rabbit 16v turbo.pcl

rabbit cranking.llg

[Simon]

Looks like there is issues around the crank signal you are getting triggers but the RPM is spiking to 800rpm which I'm sure the motor is not cranking at. 

You could try increasing the arming voltage at crank to see if it is a noise issue.

But the best method will be to scope the signal as you can then see and also check the polarity is ok too

 

 

 

[chasekirkland]

ok. Ive already scoped it and made sure there was a signal and that it was going the correct way. Just because ive also switched pins to make sure. Ill try bumping up the arming voltage and see if that helps.  This little project is starting to get the best of me

thanks 

[Simon]

If you could post an image off the scope that will let us advise on the arming voltages. (should be 50-70% of peak voltage of weakest tooth)

Make sure the signal is rising through the gap.

[chasekirkland]

i actually tried lowering the arming voltage in the first cell and now im getting spark. im running low on battery so ill charge it this morning and try again this afternoon to see if i can setup the base timing.

 

[chasekirkland]

ok so a little update. After using a scope i was only seeing the voltage at .5 ish max while cranking so i have to adjust the arming voltage to the min at .2.  Now ive got spark and everything working correctly.  I was able to adjust the base timing to -92 and now everything is lined up and sparking at TDC.

I tried to do an injector test after turning the injectors back on but could never get them to fire? so i tried starting anyways just to see whats going on. The car actually tried starting and dies. After pulling the plugs and inspecting they are getting way too much fuel. Ive setup the injectors for bosch 1000H because im using ID1000 so i think im correct. Ill have to mess with fueling now and pressure to try to get this thing better setup. Any help would be great. 

Chase 

[Adamw]

16 hours ago, chasekirkland said:

Ive setup the injectors for bosch 1000H because im using ID1000

That will be close enough to get it running but the more correct method would be to set injector type to "custom" then manually copy the deadtimes in from Inj Dynamics data sheet.

 

16 hours ago, chasekirkland said:

Ill have to mess with fueling now and pressure to try to get this thing better setup. Any help would be great. 

Adjust the master fuel setting up or down until it runs.  I would expect somewhere around 7-10ms for this size injector.