ayjayef Posted November 10, 2018 Report Share Posted November 10, 2018 So... it appears that most of my rough idle grief is trigger errors. They were only intermittent but on last 1/4 of the attached log they are pretty constant at one a second or more. I tried to catch one using the trigger scope but don't think I did. It's attached here anyway. I'm using double shielded (braided and foil) 2 core microphone wire for both the crank and the cam sensors direct to the ECU (not through the factory loom) so I would hope it's not noise. The shielded wire is near full length except for a couple of inches at the sensors and about 6 inches from the Link A plug. Not a lot of choice where they run but there is nothing really near them. Questions: Can I tell if its the crank or cam sensor or are both lumped together in the "trigger 1 error counter"? (I can't find trigger 2 error to log) Do I need to ground the shielding at one end, both ends or not needed? (currently not grounded) Can I find more info on what the errors are? 2017 Kawasaki H2-008.pclr Log 2018-11-10 7;32;31 pm.llg Trigger Scope Log 2018-11-10 7;32;04 pm.llg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted November 10, 2018 Report Share Posted November 10, 2018 Trigger two is wired wrong polarity, I'm not sure if that is the cause of the trigger error but it is quite possible. Can you swap the wires on the cam sensor and see if it improves. Was that trigger scope above taken at idle? If so we can probably bump your arming thresholds up quite a bit which will help reject noise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayjayef Posted November 10, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2018 Wrong polarity? It's the same as Kawasaki already had but I'll change it and see. Yes, trigger scope was at idle. What sort of bump are you thinking? It's currently 0.75V at that RPM for both trigger 1 and 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted November 10, 2018 Report Share Posted November 10, 2018 Not sure i got that right but is the shield NOT connected to anything at either end?. You need to connect it to the ecu so it can "drain" to ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayjayef Posted November 10, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2018 Yes, not connected to anything. Connect to ECU? Do you mean ground/earth it to the chassis or connect it to Link A7 "shield/Gnd" where these two sensor grounds terminate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted November 10, 2018 Report Share Posted November 10, 2018 1 hour ago, ayjayef said: Wrong polarity? It's the same as Kawasaki already had but I'll change it and see. See help file subject at bottom. 3 minutes ago, ayjayef said: Do you mean ground/earth it to the chassis or connect it to Link A7 "shield/Gnd" where these two sensor grounds terminate? This is also shown on the same help file subject below. The shield should connect to the "gnd out" or "shield/gnd" pins. In the Link supplied looms we splice the two trigger sensor grounds and the shield all together and connect them to pin A7 1 hour ago, ayjayef said: Yes, trigger scope was at idle. What sort of bump are you thinking? It's currently 0.75V at that RPM for both trigger 1 and 2. Arming threshold of about 1/3-1/2 of the actual trigger signal voltage is usually a good place to be. Your scope at idle showed about 10V on trig 1 and about 6V on trig 2. I would bump them up at little to something like this: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayjayef Posted November 10, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2018 I totally missed that help page, perfectly clear now. (it's an amazingly great help file) 7 minutes ago, Adamw said: Arming threshold of about 1/3-1/2 of the actual trigger signal voltage is usually a good place to be Bike will rev to 14000 odd so in the sample above the 5000,6000,7000 with the same values will extrapolate to the same value through the whole rev range. Is there a need to expand that table to cover the higher RPM's? (or do I wait to see trigger errors higher before guesstimating?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted November 11, 2018 Report Share Posted November 11, 2018 6 minutes ago, ayjayef said: Is there a need to expand that table to cover the higher RPM's? (or do I wait to see trigger errors higher before guesstimating?) You cant change the axes of the arming threshold tables. It should be fine with the example settings I gave above, your signals look clean - at least at idle anyway. We can take a closer look later if your trigger problem does not go away by swapping the cam polarity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayjayef Posted November 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2018 Good one. thanks heaps Adam and Steve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayjayef Posted November 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2018 okay, so not a win (yet) grounded both the triggers shielding to Link A7 and swapped the polarity of cam trigger 2 Can't even start it now. Voltages on the "cranking" trigger scope attached here are really low so I reverted the arming threshold to the original numbers which might still be too high for this low a signal? Is trigger 1 the right polarity? It looks the wrong way around on both these logs too but it depends if the first drop low is the right signal (i'm getting confused!) Trigger Scope Log 2018-11-11 8;36;09 pm-cranking.llg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted November 11, 2018 Report Share Posted November 11, 2018 11 hours ago, ayjayef said: Is trigger 1 the right polarity? It looks the wrong way around on both these logs too but it depends if the first drop low is the right signal (i'm getting confused!) Both are now correct polarity. Missing tooth waveform's catch a lot of people out because it looks opposite of what you expect - this is because the bit you are focusing on is a "gap" rather than a tooth. The important thing to remember is as a tooth moves towards the sensor the voltage should rise, as a tooth moves away from a sensor the voltage should fall. 11 hours ago, ayjayef said: Can't even start it now. Assuming the ECU reads RPM when cranking? If so that means it is happy with the trigger. It is quite possible the bad cam signal before meant the trigger offset was originally set up wrong. Try adding or subtracting 360deg from your trigger offset. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayjayef Posted November 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2018 13 hours ago, Adamw said: Missing tooth waveform's catch a lot of people out because it looks opposite of what you expect Good to hear I'm not the only one ever to be confused with that. Even knowing to imagine another wave in the missing teeth gap makes my brain hurt. I can see it sometimes. 13 hours ago, Adamw said: subtracting 360deg from your trigger offset. That fixed it! Was 245deg and now -119deg offset (after a 4deg timing light adjustment). Trigger scope during idle looks good and NO TRIGGER ERRORS! Starts easy now, timing is steady, idle is good. Now we can actually start tuning. Thanks for your patience and odd hours troubleshooting! Log 2018-11-12 9;11;38 pm-idle.llg Trigger Scope Log 2018-11-12 9;08;33 pm-idle.llg FunJam and MagicMike 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jozef-turbojoe Posted July 28, 2022 Report Share Posted July 28, 2022 On 11/12/2018 at 2:23 AM, ayjayef said: Good to hear I'm not the only one ever to be confused with that. Even knowing to imagine another wave in the missing teeth gap makes my brain hurt. I can see it sometimes. That fixed it! Was 245deg and now -119deg offset (after a 4deg timing light adjustment). Trigger scope during idle looks good and NO TRIGGER ERRORS! Starts easy now, timing is steady, idle is good. Now we can actually start tuning. Thanks for your patience and odd hours troubleshooting! Log 2018-11-12 9;11;38 pm-idle.llg Trigger Scope Log 2018-11-12 9;08;33 pm-idle.llg what are you're trigger setting ? what cam and crank trigger h2 have, i am going to install standalone cant find anywhere what tooth count is on this bike . Thank you in adwance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted July 28, 2022 Report Share Posted July 28, 2022 24-2 on crank, single tooth on cam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jozef-turbojoe Posted August 3, 2022 Report Share Posted August 3, 2022 thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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