TomD Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 Completing setup on an S50b30us (M50tu). Coils are factory and fire on ignition test. Tried to check timing and get no spark during cranking. Checked connections from crank and cam sensors and they seem fine. Crank sensor seems to be working as I have RPM during cranking. Not sure what else to look for. I have fuel mode set to off to check timing. Please help. Thank you. BMW E36 M3 TURBO no start.pclx no spark cranking.llgx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 Can you do a triggerscope while cranking. I think from memory the S50B30 has a multitooth cam wheel, so cam level sync wont work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomD Posted October 31, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 Thanks. I can do one but I'm sure it is a H/L level sync. Photo of my trigger wheel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 Still want to see a triggerscope since you map shows trigger errors were logged when last saved. How are you checking for spark? Do you have no spark even if you pull the plug out and watch it? Are the S50 coils the same as the M50 (dumb coils)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomD Posted October 31, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 Yes, the coils are the same. I have an extension plug wire attached and a timing light on the plug wire. Timing light strobes during ignition test for coil 1, nothing during cranking. I thought I could run a trigger scope but I am humbled. Can you post a procedure, how to? I found the tutorial, the link to one drive didn't work earlier. I'll post it when done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomD Posted October 31, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 This is what I see when I open Trigger Scope. Tried a capture but get nothing. Now what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted November 1, 2020 Report Share Posted November 1, 2020 The blank triggerscope view I believe can be caused by the last log file save location being not valid. For instance if you saved your last log to a usb or network location that now is unplugged. There is an update in the next release to solve that. In the meantime can you just do a short log and save it to desktop or something then try the triggerscope again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted November 1, 2020 Report Share Posted November 1, 2020 Can you also pull a plug out to confirm spark rather than relying on the timing light - some dont pick up spark reliably when cranking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomD Posted November 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2020 You were correct, Adam. The strobe didn't work during cranking. I do have spark when looking at the plug. I had to remove and reload PCLink to get trigger scope to work and captured a log. If you could please look over my trigger scope and evaluate. Still, no start. Do you think I should try the base map as Link provided without changes, just to see if it will start? I only changed the tables and fuel mode for forced induction, and also followed the pre-start procedures in the manual instructing to turn some things off. I will turn fueling back on and try again and report back. Also uploaded a screen shot of the capture, I can't tell if the log file saves properly. Thanks TriggerScopeLog.llgx.llgx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomD Posted November 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2020 The latest files. Turned on fueling. Smelling fuel at the exhaust tailpipe. No start. BMW E36 M3 TURBO no start2.pclx PC Datalog - 2020-11-1 10;24;53 am.llgx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted November 1, 2020 Report Share Posted November 1, 2020 The triggerscope looks like you might have clicked the capture button before cranking, you need to click capture while the engine is cranking. If you've got fuel and spark but no go then it suggests the timing is off. Try adding 360 to your offset, maybe you are sparking on exhaust stroke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomD Posted November 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2020 OK! I changed the trigger offset 360 out and nothing. I changed it back and she fired right up, I Was looking at 1.25 lambda. Got a maximum injector duty cycle reached message, began checking base timing and at -328 offset and a lock at 12 btdc, mark was at tdc. One change to offset to -325 (close to factory setting of -324.5) and it died. Upon trying to restart it wants to start but just won't get there. Do I need to adjust cranking enrichment? More fuel cranking? Also, do I need to subtract 12 from -328 to -340 to get the timing to match? Seems to be way off but if it works I will move on. At least I got fire. PC Datalog - 2020-11-1 3;39;07 pm.llgx TriggerScopeLognew.llgx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted November 1, 2020 Report Share Posted November 1, 2020 Sounds like it is just not enough fuel, probably ran with the extra post start and warm up enrichment active, then as these two decayed away it doesnt have enough to keep it happy. Provided Injector and fuel pressure data is ok then probably just not big enough numbers in your fuel table. Typically 55-65% VE at idle. So, for now just bump up the whole fuel table to see if it helps. Dont worry too much about the VE numbers being realistic or not yet, just give it what it wants and work through getting things right once you have it running. Add 12deg to the current offset to advance timing 12deg (so -316). For the maximum inj duty cycle warning, that will probably go away if you update to the latest firmware. Early firmware tripped that warning if there was a trigger error during cranking. TomD 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomD Posted November 2, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 Thank you. I got a stable idle bumping the fuel table to 55 and the trigger offset still set to -328. Have yet to be able to check base timing because as soon as I open the calibrate window it died. And now that it is up to operating temp, it won't hot restart. But at least I'm at the point where it is tuning related. Another log just to see if there is an obvious area I can tweek to enable me to progress. I was just thinking, it started reliably several times until I tried the base timing operation. Maybe it caused that trigger glitch again? A firmware upgrade resolution? Also, the warning about having a dealer do the firmware upgrade, no dealer anywhere near me. Will I be ok? if I've done, have the experience doing, all the firmware uploads to my Megasquirt? PC Datalog - 2020-11-1 4;27;14 pm.llgx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 2 hours ago, TomD said: Also, the warning about having a dealer do the firmware upgrade, no dealer anywhere near me. Will I be ok? if I've done, have the experience doing, all the firmware uploads to my Megasquirt? Where is the warning? I have never noticed that. It is straight forward and not much can go wrong so jump in and give it a shot. Save a copy of your map before proceeding is about the only precaution I would take. 2 hours ago, TomD said: I was just thinking, it started reliably several times until I tried the base timing operation. Maybe it caused that trigger glitch again? A firmware upgrade resolution? No I have never seen anything like that with a common missing tooth trigger so it is probably more tune related. 2 hours ago, TomD said: Have yet to be able to check base timing because as soon as I open the calibrate window it died. When you open the check base timing screen, the timing is locked to whatever value is in that top box. So the reason it probably stalls is the idle control system is probably adding max advance to keep it running before hand, then when you open that screen all the advance is removed. What you can do is open the set base timing screen with the engine not running, add say 10deg to your offset (make sure you hit enter so it turns blue), and set the ref to say 10deg or whatever mark you have on the front. Then start it and it should be happier with more normal advance. 3 hours ago, TomD said: Another log just to see if there is an obvious area I can tweek to enable me to progress. Your idle control is going a bit crazy due to too much gain. Set idle ignition proportional gain to 1.0, set derivative to 0.5, under idle actuator set integral gain to 0.5. Some other changes I would suggest to make tuning easier: Fuel main settings, set min effective PW to 0.5ms. Turn on async injection and set minimum async injection to 0.5. Set accel fuel as per the example below. Turn closed loop lambda off for now. Set charge temp approximation up as per the example table in the help file. Turn off the transient retard table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomD Posted November 2, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 Thank you. Hopefully will make more progress tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomD Posted November 2, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 The warning was just a little blurb under firmware version. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koracing Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 Related but not completely on topic: I've tuned a couple E36 (one G4x, one G4+) and both base maps have a table enabled called transient ignition retard. The base map has this table pull 20 deg of timing when you change throttle and it makes a dead spot right when you go to get on throttle. I'm trying to understand the scenario when this is useful and can kind of see some situations that it may be beneficial, but so far for the track cars I've tuned (naturally aspirated) this has just been a bother -- I would recommend disabling or greatly reducing the amount of timing retard in this table. I looked at several other base calibration files and in the PC link software and not found another that has this table enabled from link. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dx4picco Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 igntion retard on tip in can be used to reduce jerkiness when applying fast a lasrge amount of throttle, and some engines are prone to knock on tip in due to pressure wave effects in the inlet, so that help reduce that too. the other way around, igntion advance on throttle closing will soften the torque decrease. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koracing Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 The fact that it isn't enabled on any other tune I've looked at was a puzzler. I can understand that some motors may be prone to knock at tip in due to intake design and inrush of air. Regarding jerkiness: I'll have to intentionally play with this to see how much affect this has - thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 Yeah its typically to eliminate tip in knock. With some engines once you have steady state tuned the ignition table to MBT, you will find it will knock on heavy transients. You would typically only enable this after fully tuning the ignition table, and then only if required which is why I told him to turn it off at the beginning. The E36 map is quite old - from G4 days so it has probably just been enabled by mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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