V44 7bar internal map, multiple errors, temp & MAP

[MRRPM]

I had a V44 quit running, nothing but trigger errors, swapped to a new ecu, no errors, same map.

The new ecu will not recognize the temp sensor, just says 150C almost every sensor that is picked.

Also, the new ecu will not calibrate the map sensor, it says it's out of range, when the 7bar is picked. It works fine if I pick the 4bar.

[Simon]

The current V44's are fitted with a 4bar sensor so that I would expect.

The temp issue could be due to the error / fault settings being incorrect. Check the error high and low values.

[MRRPM]

This ecu, I figured out, has a 3 bar map sensor. It never would recognize the temp sensor, I even sent it back to Ray years ago, as it had the same problems when I bought it, outta the box. It still has them, Ray said it didn't have any problems, I've never ran it until today. It runs, no trigger errors.

I have another new 7 bar V44, outta the box, it also has nothing but trigger errors, no RPM signal at all. It does however, recognize the temp sensor, same map loaded into both units.

I did update the firmware on both units, same problems. What's up with my units?

[Simon]

I would be happy to take Ray on his word that it was working on the bench.

Does it give errors on the temp channel? and is it the same on all temp inputs?

For the RPM manually check the settings on both triggers.

[MRRPM]

Yes, I'm sure Ray had it correct, when I sent it back. Could it be some problem with the old firmware I was running? Maybe the new software, not liking the old firmware?

The IAT sensor works fine, on all my V44 units.

I don't get any errors, just a 150 degree C reading, on almost all sensors picked, on engine temp sensor. I'm in the US, any way to make the temps read in F?

On the triggers, seems odd that one ecu can work fine with the same setup, and the other have nothing but errors.

[Simon]

It could just be component tolerances so that on one unit is just enough to give issues. There is of course the possibility of defect.

If all temp channels are an issue it could be the 5V internal supply. If there is an error with this it will show in the run-times window (F12)

If doing a first time set up then fist step should be to get on to the latest firmware and base map and configure from there.

[MRRPM]

Far from first time, I've had these units for years, but I've only ran one of them. One started giving problems, so I unplugged one, then plugged in another one. Updated firmware on them all, but had that one get to where it won't connect, which was the one that would not have trigger errors. The other two, have nothing but trigger errors.

This is a custom install, I can run whatever tooth count I want, and whatever sensor I need to make it work.

What is the best sensor/tooth count that works best with these ecu's?I need a cam sensor, since it's an odd fire V2, 4 stroke. I would try wasted spark, but I read in another thread that none of these ecu's support odd fire/wasted.

[Simon]

Preferred trigger would be 12 or 24 teeth on crank with reluctor sensor.

and a single tooth half way between crank teeth on the cam. (Avoid having the sync on the cam occurring on top of a trigger from the crank.) Reluctor sensor type also.

[Simon]

I should also note we are happy to run these though the bench test if needed.

Freight will be the biggest cost.

[MRRPM]

I may send one or two of these units to let you check them out.

On the triggers, seems like more crank teeth would be better? This being an odd fire engine, it doesn't turn very smoothly, it accelerates the crank when it fires, then decelerates when not firing. It has 36 now, with two missing, seems like more than 36 would work better? if the ecu can keep up?

[Simon]

36 would also be fine with no missing teeth.

[MRRPM]

I have one ecu that still works, except it doesn't get an rpm signal, with trigger errors, I'm gonna try a straight 36 tooth wheel, with my cam sensor, see how that works.

Why are these ecu's not wasted spark capable, odd-fire? Seems pretty simple to just put out a spark every revolution of the crank, in a certain place, especially a one or two cylinder. I know there are very simple/inexpensive ecu's out there that can do it. I thought that these units would do the odd-fire when I got mine, but that has been a few years ago, was that feature taken out? Or am I mistaken?

I was talking toa dealer yeaterday,he noticed that my units are low serial numbered units, could that be a problem? They are all under 5000, most in the mid fourthousands.

[Simon]

Being early units isn't a problem. Only feature you can't use is CAN unless the ECU's come back for some hardware changes.

The units can do odd fire just not in a wasted spark format. This is due to the way the code was written back in the day and is not easy to undo without the risk of upsetting many other ignition related functions.

Fortunately Odd fire applications would struggle to make up 1% of ECU requests.

If you ran a coil per cylinder then no problem.

[MRRPM]

Ok, I don't use CAN at all, so that's good.

I do run coil per cyl., I use the LS1 type smart coils, with the built-in ignitor.

The thing I'm wanting to do, is make trigger errors a thing of the past. The errors always seem to come up from time to time, and seemingly for no reason. I'm thinking that if I can make it run with only a crank trigger, then that will eliminate trigger errors? What do I need to do?

I come from an american car, electronic ignition, background, which never have trigger errors, MSD style. They simply spark when told to do so. I need that kind of rock solid dependability in this ecu setup.

[Simon]

On multi tooth with sync triggering there are a couple of things to be careful of.

Make sure the sync is not occurring at the same time as a tooth on the crank. This should best be checked using a scope to view the signal.

This is less likely to happen on lower tooth crank wheels.

The likes of most American systems (thinking MSD) use a tooth per TDC for trigger input and this reduces the chance of the happening but also reduces the accuracy of the ignition timing.

Trigger polarity needs to be correct on reluctor (VR) type sensors if this is incorrect it will cause issues.

For Hall or Opto sensors the power supply to them must be clean and of the correct voltage.

On engines where the RPM can change rapidly (1 or 2 cylinder odd fire being the worst) at crank multi tooth missing is best avoided.

[MRRPM]

Yes, on the multi tooth/missing being avoided, I have noticed that the missing teeth looks just like the engine going over TDC on a scope. The engine (ecu actually) can't tell the difference in TDC, and the missing teeth.

I agree on lower tooth crank wheels, however, on lower count wheels, and single/two/odd fire cylinder engines, I don't think the ecu has enough resolution to find an accurate solution for spark on low tooth count wheels. This engine came with a 36-2wheel,VR sensor on the crank, and a hall/one tooth on the cam. I still don't see what the factory ecu is doing with that type of setup, maybe they are looking at the sensors differently than I have my ViPec set up to do?

Simon, Can this ecu be set up to run on just the crank sensor alone?

If so, wouldn't that eliminate trigger errors?

It's an 80 degree, odd fire V2 engine, four stroke.

[Simon]

To run on crank trigger only you need to then be running group fire fuel and wasted spark. (which for this engine is not an option)

As off the crank only you have no way of knowing what stroke the engine is on. It could be exhaust or compression.

[MRRPM]

To run on crank trigger only you need to then be running group fire fuel and wasted spark. (which for this engine is not an option)

As off the crank only you have no way of knowing what stroke the engine is on. It could be exhaust or compression.

Group fire fuel is ok, as is wasted spark, but you're saying this ecu won't or can't do odd-fire wasted, correct?

I have tried putting the ecu in wasted spark mode, 2cyl, custom tdc points, but it only puts out one spark signal, not two.

[Simon]

Correct it can't do wasted on an odd fire engine.

Just go with even spaced teeth on the crank (no missing)

and a sync on the cam and make sure the cam pulse is not on top of a crank signal

12 or even 6 teeth on the crank will be more than enough to get good timing resolution.

[MRRPM]

12 or even 6 teeth on the crank will be more than enough to get good timing resolution.

Ok, I was thinking just going with 36 teeth, no missing.

Since this is a two cyl, odd fire, wouldn't more teeth give more resolution? Especially when it goes over TDC? Seems like at 6 teeth, the ecu would see a tooth, then the engine could decelerate on compression, then accelerate rapidly on the power stroke, causing timing errors?

These engines run about like an air impact gun, hitting hard, then coasting until another hit.

[Simon]

36 will work but it makes getting the sync on the cam in the correct spot much tighter.

12 or 24 teeth work very well.

[MRRPM]

36 will work but it makes getting the sync on the cam in the correct spot much tighter.

12 or 24 teeth work very well.

Ok, I'm making a 36T full tooth count to try. If I get errors, I'll back the tooth count down & see what happens. I'll put a timing light on it to see if the ecu keeps timing consistent even with the odd fire nature of these motors.

[MRRPM]

Here are some timing wheels, 12 tooth, which tooth style should I use?

[Scott]

The trigger discs we sell here are most like option 3 (little teeth) and work well, I would recommend going for that option. Option 1 would likely work well also.

Cheers,

Scott

[Simon]

My vote goes with #3