Crank, No ignition or fuel

[Dunkylad95]

Hello again guys,

Attempting first start up on my car and I am coming across an issue where all sensors work in test but none of the outputs seem to be working when I turn the key.

All injectors stay off, Fuel pump wont prime, Coilpacks stay off, No trigger signal, No Rpm reading.

 

I have attatched my details below and a copy of the base map if anybody would care to take a look and see what I am missing

 

Base Map 4.pclr

[koracing]

Can you post a PC datalog while you're attempting to crank?

[Dunkylad95]

I am not currently with the car, I will be back there in the morning and attempt to log the data and forward it on, thank you 

[koracing]

Capture a trigger scope as well if you can and upload that also.

[Dunkylad95]

Hey Kris, attatched is the log file and trigger scope. 

I did notice while i was over there that my firmware version is 5.6.6.3602 which is older than the version of the base map i was sent (base map version is 5.6.8.3671) if that makes a difference.

 

thanks again

Paul

Log 2023-04-9 9;15;01 am.llg Trigger Scope Log 2023-04-9 9;14;13 am.llg Trigger Scope Log 2023-04-9 9;16;59 am.llg

[Adamw]

Someone has been messing with your trigger settings.  They are set to reluctor which they are not.  Settings from our base map below.

Also, not related, but your MAP sensor calibration is wrong.

[Dunkylad95]

I have made the trigger changes as above and will re-calibrate the MAP when I plug back in, thank you. Is there anything else that looks out of the ordinary that would be preventing my outputs from operating ? 

[Adamw]

If you dont have RPM then not much is going to work.  You dont have a fuel pump assigned and you have 2 idle valves assigned.  I would turn off antilag and launch control for now until it is tuned, and I would either turn off or reconsider the oil pressure safety on GP Limit 1, it is going to give you a 100% fuel cut until your oil press is above 50kpa at present.  So sometimes you wont get any cranking enrichment etc if you dont crank within the 5sec startup timer.  

If you click on the GP limit table and hit F1, it will open the correct page in the help file, scroll down a bit and there is an example oil press safety set up in there.  

[Dunkylad95]

I understand. The tuner who sent me the base map has fuel pump set on AUX8 as fp speed, should this be set to Fuel pump instead ? I have turned off launch control and anti lag as advised. i have also turned off GP Limit 1 as there is no oil pressure sensor on this engine , just the 1 pin oil sending unit.

I see an idle valve on AUX2 but i cant see the second one you speak of.

Also, should the Fuel pump have a hold time assigned ?

[Adamw]

10 hours ago, Dunkylad95 said:

The tuner who sent me the base map has fuel pump set on AUX8 as fp speed, should this be set to Fuel pump instead ?

11 hours ago, Dunkylad95 said:

Also, should the Fuel pump have a hold time assigned ?

Set aux 8 to fuel pump.  In the fuel pump control menu set speed control mode to off.  There is a prime setting in there.  Around 3 seconds is typical.

 

10 hours ago, Dunkylad95 said:

I see an idle valve on AUX2 but i cant see the second one you speak of.

 

[Dunkylad95]

Thank you Adam, I will give these changes a try and see how things go, I appreciate your time and knowledge 

[Dunkylad95]

Hey Adam, thanks to your help the car finally started, thanks a million ! I have attatched a log file of the first start up and a trigger scope incase you notice anything out of the ordinary but I am delighted so far.

Two small issues I am having are the idle speed is quite high , it was at 2200 rpm and with some adjustments of the idle screw i got it to 1400 but i cant get it any lower.

Also when i try to calibrate base timing nothing happens and there is a locked icon in the corner, how do i overcome this ?? and do i need the idle to be lower to set the base timing ? Thanks

Log 2023-04-10 2;35;50 pm start up.llg Trigger Scope Log 2023-04-10 2;35;23 pm start up.llg

[koracing]

Your currently using open loop for your idle control - what happens if you lower the base position down to zero?  You can try using closed loop as well, but I would experiment with the base position values first to see how the idle reacts - and figure out if you have any vacuum leaks.  Once that is sorted you should turn on idle ignition control which can pull the idle speed down a bit when set properly.

To calibrate the timing you have to click on the little Key that is next to Set Base Timing which will then pop up a "Set Base Timing" window that will fix the timing to the first value in that calibration window as long as that window is open (usually you would use 10 or 15 or something you have a good easily visible timing mark for).  Then you compare your timing light reading and adjust the offset value until both the laptop timing value and the timing light match up (be sure to hit enter when you make a change for it to actually take affect), then once they are synced up you can click ok to get out of that calibration window and it shoudl be good to go.

[Dunkylad95]

Perfect, I won't get back over until the weekend to it but I will give that a shot for the idle as I'm fairly certain I have no vacuum leaks

 

I realise my error with the trigger settings I never pressed enter I just clicked confirm on the base setting window. 

Thanks again for your help Kris 

[BMW-Bob]

On 4/9/2023 at 5:47 AM, Adamw said:

...  So sometimes you wont get any cranking enrichment etc if you dont crank within the 5sec startup timer.  

 

This brings up a question I've been fighting to figure out.  I have G4X+ for BMW M50, adapted to M42 4 cylinder.  I have the engine tuned and we did ~15 hours of endurance racing this weekend.  Car ran great... BUT.... I've been trying to get HOT restarts tire fire on the first crank.  It takes multiple tries on HOT restarts.  Sometimes it fires, sometimes it does not.  Really stressful during an endurance race after a refueling pitstop.
- I have KEY ON Prime set to ON, but do not have prime pulse time populated in the table.  If I populate, failed starts tend to flood the engine and starting is even more difficult.  I use the KEY ON set to ON so the fuel pump will always pressurize the system.
Questions
- For the mentioned 5sec startup timer,
     - can this be adjusted?
     - what is the correct starting procedure?
         1.) Key-On and Instantly go to crank?, or
         2.) Key-On wait ~1 sec for the ECU to initiate, then crank as soon as you see the Tach Sweep Start?

- for all the enrichment table settings (Crank, Post Crank, Post Start, etc) these are percentage % increase over what number?

- Starting (cranking) at full operating temp, little to no enrichment needed, what is the ECU using for a reference fuel number? 
     - It is the 0 to ~500 RPM range in the fuel table?

[Adamw]

Pre crank prime is nothing to do with the fuel pump prime.  Pre-crank prime is the injectors giving a squirt either at key-on or in start position.  Fuel pump prime will happen regardless based on your fuel pump settings. 

 

4 hours ago, BMW-Bob said:

Questions
- For the mentioned 5sec startup timer,
     - can this be adjusted?

You are taking comments out of context.  There is no 5 sec start up timer.  The original poster had an oil pressure safety limiter setup that would cut fuel when oil pressure was low. 

 

4 hours ago, BMW-Bob said:

for all the enrichment table settings (Crank, Post Crank, Post Start, etc) these are percentage % increase over what number

Pre-crank prime is an injector pulse width in milliseconds.  The rest are percentage increase over base fuel. 

 

4 hours ago, BMW-Bob said:

- Starting (cranking) at full operating temp, little to no enrichment needed, what is the ECU using for a reference fuel number? 
     - It is the 0 to ~500 RPM range in the fuel table?

That will vary depending on what fuel equation and equation load source you are using, but yes, the fuel table is used to look up air flow or fuel flow for a specific RPM and load.  For the most common basic fuel set up using traditional fuel equation and MAP load source the base fuel calculation would be something like:

Inj PW = Fuel table value x (MAP/100) x master fuel value x (1/lambda target) + ECT & IAT trims. 

[koracing]

If it's flooding, give it throttle while cranking to get more air in.  The hot restart will either need more fuel or more air - and air is easier to add with your foot while crankig.

[BMW-Bob]

On 8/21/2023 at 6:19 PM, Adamw said:

Pre crank prime is nothing to do with the fuel pump prime.  Pre-crank prime is the injectors giving a squirt either at key-on or in start position.  Fuel pump prime will happen regardless based on your fuel pump settings. 

 

You are taking comments out of context.  There is no 5 sec start up timer.  The original poster had an oil pressure safety limiter setup that would cut fuel when oil pressure was low. 

 

Pre-crank prime is an injector pulse width in milliseconds.  The rest are percentage increase over base fuel. 

 

That will vary depending on what fuel equation and equation load source you are using, but yes, the fuel table is used to look up air flow or fuel flow for a specific RPM and load.  For the most common basic fuel set up using traditional fuel equation and MAP load source the base fuel calculation would be something like:

Inj PW = Fuel table value x (MAP/100) x master fuel value x (1/lambda target) + ECT & IAT trims. 

Thank you for the clarifications and explanations.  I have some work to do before I can work on the hot restarts.