Trigger Setup - Evo 5

[400s]

Hi guys,

Need some help getting the car to start on an 18 tooth trigger wheel.

Cam and Crank angle sensors are new.

I have attached the trigger scope, trigger log and rom for ease of reference.

Let me know what I can work on to get this car to fire up. Currently we do have a spark, fuel and air but the car cant seem to fire up.

Steve.

 

Trigger Scope Log 2019-06-10 12;32;22 pm.llg

103226449_FINALBaseTune.pclr

[400s]

Im not getting any fault codes btw.

 

 

 

 

[Brad Burnett]

change trigger 2 sync mode to "cam level"

[Simon]

@Brad Burnett Cam level is only suitable for a multi tooth missing set up.

Has the CAM signal been modified to a single tooth?

Have you done a trigger calibration to confirm the timing with a timing light? 

 

[Brad Burnett]

34 minutes ago, Simon said:

@Brad Burnett Cam level is only suitable for a multi tooth missing set up.

Has the CAM signal been modified to a single tooth?

Have you done a trigger calibration to confirm the timing with a timing light? 

 

I didnt know this, but from his trigger scope the cam trigger is still a level disc.

[Adamw]

30 minutes ago, Brad Burnett said:

I didnt know this, but from his trigger scope the cam trigger is still a level disc.

It appears due to his wrong settings the trigger scope hasnt captured a full 760deg in this case.  He says he has 18teeth on the crank (should see 36 for 2 revs) but we are only seeing 5 or 6 in that scope, so you are not seeing the full picture.

@400s  The main problem in your settings is you have trig 2 sync mode set to "Crank pulse 1X", it needs to be set to "cam pulse 1X".

 

[400s]

6 hours ago, Adamw said:

It appears due to his wrong settings the trigger scope hasnt captured a full 760deg in this case.  He says he has 18teeth on the crank (should see 36 for 2 revs) but we are only seeing 5 or 6 in that scope, so you are not seeing the full picture.

@400s  The main problem in your settings is you have trig 2 sync mode set to "Crank pulse 1X", it needs to be set to "cam pulse 1X".

 

@Adamw thank you. Will amend, and update.

trigger edges for both cam and crank are ok?

7 hours ago, Simon said:

@Brad Burnett Cam level is only suitable for a multi tooth missing set up.

Has the CAM signal been modified to a single tooth?

Have you done a trigger calibration to confirm the timing with a timing light? 

 

@Simon cam signal has not been modified.

 

trigger calibration done with a timing light and it is spot on.

[Adamw]

6 minutes ago, 400s said:

@Simon cam signal has not been modified.

You will need a single tooth on the cam for the 18T crank to work.  Cut off either one.

[400s]

Ok... will do so and update you. 

 

Thank you.

[400s]

Amended the rom to cam pulse 1x after cutting out the smaller tooth on the cam. Still no luck in having the car fire up.

 

I have attached a rom with the trigger settings as is, trigger scope log/capture, for ease of reference.

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

 

Trigger Scope Log 2019-06-11 1;21;46 pm.llg 103226449_FINALBaseTune.pclr

[Simon]

I would set both trig 1 and 2 to falling edge. 

Rest of set up of triggers looks ok. 

Assuming timing is still correct and confirmed on a timing light and that you have spark and fuel during crank the next check will be to remove the plugs and check if they are wet. 

It might just be too much fuel (or to little) 

 

[400s]

No Luck....

[Adamw]

So you have a spark and the timing light shows it is at the correct time?  That would suggest the problem is now fuel...

What size injectors does it have?

Can you do a short log of it cranking.  Attach log and latest tune here.  How to do a log:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_P1LRANeO4A

 

[400s]

@Adamw there is spark and timing light is set perfectly.

We have tried different fuel enrichment combinations (even doubling the pre and crank enrichment) with no luck, cranking with new plugs from as lean as 16.1:1 all the way down to low 12s.

Car is running ID1050x injectors.

I have attached the full rom, trigger capture/log and crank log

Changed the trigger offset by 360 degrees with no luck too and I have the trigger capture/logs for that too if you will need to have a look at them.

Car sounds like it wants to fire up (on trigger 1 priority) but does not. Interesting thing is majority of the time plugs 1&4 are wet while plugs 2&3 are dry.. not sure if this is important data towards my situation.

 

Steve

Map A Crank twice Log.llg Trigger Scope Log A 2019-06-19 12;25;05 pm.llg

18634787_MapA.pclr

[Simon]

If you are still running the wasted spark set up do you have resistive plugs fitted?

[Adamw]

Unfortunately your log has very few channels logged.  Can you do another cranking log using the PC logger as my earlier video shows.

Can you also try bumping the master fuel up to about 10/12ms and opening the throttle a little to see if more air and fuel helps.

[motomattx]

Are you running gasoline or E85?

[Jefferson.C]

Your injector information seems a little off from the spec sheets I have from ID.
I have always used 0.2050 Min effective pulse width. 
 

ID1050x_Link_G4 _09072018.xlsx

[cj]

On 6/19/2019 at 11:11 PM, 400s said:

plugs 1&4 are wet while plugs 2&3 are dry.

Have you run each injector test individually to validate they are working? Same with both spark outputs. You should hear them click when you run the tests.

[400s]

@Adamw attached are the logs with Master Fuel set to 10m and 12m. No change and the car still cant fire up.

It does not sound like a fuel problem. Hope you find something in the logs that states otherwise (crossing fingers.)

Something to note...... The only things that changed on the car since it last run perfectly are; 

1. the 18 tooth crank trigger wheel from a stock two tooth crank trigger wheel,

2. cutting one of the cam teeth,

3. new cam and crank sensors

4. and a rebuilt throttle body. Thats it. 

The rom is more or less the same as before the mechanical changes and the current settings on the other tables (timing, fuel etc) should atleast fire up the car as those are more or less the same settings as when the car run perfectly on the stock crank trigger wheel.

10ms master fuel test log.llg 12ms master fuel test log.llg

On 6/20/2019 at 1:05 AM, Simon said:

If you are still running the wasted spark set up do you have resistive plugs fitted?

Yes.. I have been swapping between BPR8ES and BPR8EIX plugs when im about to foul one set.

13 hours ago, motomattx said:

Are you running gasoline or E85?

Pump gas.... Values are too low for E85

13 hours ago, Jefferson.C said:

Your injector information seems a little off from the spec sheets I have from ID.
I have always used 0.2050 Min effective pulse width. 
 

ID1050x_Link_G4 _09072018.xlsx 731.01 kB · 2 downloads

0.2050 will be in the non-linear region of the injectors. However, there are several settings that will dictate the FPW depending on how one tunes. I like to keep my ID1050X's above 1.2ms.... 1.1 for anything above 1300.. but then again thats a personal preference....

11 hours ago, cj said:

Have you run each injector test individually to validate they are working? Same with both spark outputs. You should hear them click when you run the tests.

@cj we have checked that all plugs have a spark..... but not thought to check if the injectors are individually working although they were in perfect condition before the crank trigger wheel changes... will look into that asap.

 

Thanks.

[Adamw]

I dont see much wrong in the log now.  There are a couple of instances of 700-1000RPM showing in the log.  Is it actually firing and trying to start?

[400s]

2 hours ago, Adamw said:

I dont see much wrong in the log now.  There are a couple of instances of 700-1000RPM showing in the log.  Is it actually firing and trying to start?

Yes.. in some instances it sounds like it wants to fire up but it doesn’t.

othertimes there is a massive backfire..

sometimes.. nothing.. even if rpms are above 500

[Jefferson.C]

Have you taken a shot in the dark and tried multiple trigger offset values? Worth a try if you haven't already.

 

[cj]

That start + stumble + cut out immediately looks similar to what you see with a lack of fuel. Completely off track from the original trigger issues I know, but you are now seeing sensible RPM and no errors. I'm assuming you have run the trigger1 calibration process and seen stable crank marks at the end of it? 

Have you checked that you have fuel in the tank, and your pump comes on when cranking? Do you have a pressure gauge or sensor anywhere in the fuel system you could check for pressure?

[400s]

1 hour ago, cj said:

That start + stumble + cut out immediately looks similar to what you see with a lack of fuel. Completely off track from the original trigger issues I know, but you are now seeing sensible RPM and no errors. I'm assuming you have run the trigger1 calibration process and seen stable crank marks at the end of it? 

Have you checked that you have fuel in the tank, and your pump comes on when cranking? Do you have a pressure gauge or sensor anywhere in the fuel system you could check for pressure?

Full tank of Fuel. Fuel Pump comes on. There is 42 psi of steady fuel pressure.