Car won't idle

[Clattie]

Hi guys,

I got my car running the other day but it's not idling...
Admittedly I purchased a Plug and Play ECU for my 1994 MR2 Turbo but as time has gone on I've heavily modified the car with a completely modernized setup including a PDM, E-throttle, Boost Controller, etc... you get the jist.

I've attached two log files below plus my config, I'm also running an aftermarket COP kit (with cam sensor) from racer x, 844cc Injectors at 43.5PSI fuel pressure, Garrett g25-660 turbo, custom intake manifold, custom exhaust manifold, straight pipe.

Is this just an issue of using the startup map for a non-modified MR2? I just need to get the plumbing for my charge cooler and radiator sorted and then I'm looking to go on the dyno or street tune.

Link - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-YL0ofD18pntwZI0vq_4Pd0XG1I0ZSqS/view?usp=sharing, https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EBKz4jgY0mZhEDtzN6u9mwspOtZjAV8_/view?usp=sharing, https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RwzbPxQkS4mLJdxjPLOBxJiZya8PgQYy/view?usp=sharing, https://drive.google.com/file/d/1omn_CtZHXUwrYJSUPXpN58m78UaiNGU8/view?usp=sharing

[DerekAE86]

just listening to the startup video makes me think the base timing hasnt been calibrated accurately.

I notice youve increased timing in the ignition table to 20deg in the 'idle' range, but idle control is kicking in straight away and bringing your timing back to 10deg
and youve got base idle position set to 3.5% at all temps. its possible you also need the ethrottle to open a little more

[Clattie]

2 hours ago, DerekAE86 said:

just listening to the startup video makes me think the base timing hasnt been calibrated accurately.

I notice youve increased timing in the ignition table to 20deg in the 'idle' range, but idle control is kicking in straight away and bringing your timing back to 10deg
and youve got base idle position set to 3.5% at all temps. its possible you also need the ethrottle to open a little more

HI Derek, complete novice so I'm just trying to get it as ready as I can for a tune by someone else.

Although the ignition timing is spot on.

I've not intentionally set 20 degrees of timing as i don't even know where that is but I've corrected the base idle to the stock MR2 Map now.

Maybe it is something to do with the two? As it doesn't bog out when I'm on the throttle.

[Adamw]

Your fuel table is not suitable for modelled mode, you could probably just double the values in there as a better starting point.  To do this, click the empty cell at the top left axes intersection and type "*2", then enter.

Turn off IAT trim table and copy the example charge temp table out of the help file.  

In accel fuel set your cold correction table to 1.0 right across.  

In your idle actuator settings, change your integral gain to 0.05.  

 

I agree with Derek that it possibly sounds retarded and the trigger offset is a little unusual.  Your offset of -352 would mean the sensor is sitting right in the missing tooth gap when the engine is at TDC, is this what you see if you turn the engine by hand to TDC?  

 

[Clattie]

On 8/21/2023 at 12:08 AM, Adamw said:

Your fuel table is not suitable for modelled mode, you could probably just double the values in there as a better starting point.  To do this, click the empty cell at the top left axes intersection and type "*2", then enter.

Turn off IAT trim table and copy the example charge temp table out of the help file.  

In accel fuel set your cold correction table to 1.0 right across.  

In your idle actuator settings, change your integral gain to 0.05.  

 

I agree with Derek that it possibly sounds retarded and the trigger offset is a little unusual.  Your offset of -352 would mean the sensor is sitting right in the missing tooth gap when the engine is at TDC, is this what you see if you turn the engine by hand to TDC?  

 

1. I did a first start at *2 last time and my spark plugs came out black, should I try something a little lower?

2. I've turned off the IAT Trim table but how exactly do I copy the charge temp table and how do I find it? Do you mean write it in manually or is there a shortcut like copy and paste? (I saw 3 different charge temp tables in the 'charge temp correction' section of the help file but I don't know which one to use).

3. Done

4. Done

5. I'll try and have a look tonight if I have time, so I'll report back on that.
The car wouldn't start 360 degrees in the other direction... should I spin the toothed wheel 90 degrees and redo ignition timing if that is the case?

UPDATE - I span the crank to TDC and yep it's sitting right on the missing tooth... I was just told to place it anywhere and set it up on the ECU but I'm guessing this is causing a problem I'm unaware of. Picture attached below
Image Link - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1--B5i5FrES06i1EK36nAPzYx8OvXzEfd/view?usp=sharing

Edited August 22, 2023 by Clattie
UPDATE

[Clattie]

BUMP

[Adamw]

1. Adjust the fuel table values until the lambda reads correct.  
2. Make your table look like this one:

5.  Crank wheel would be better with the missing teeth passing the sensor about 90BTDC or 90ATDC, for best timing accuracy and more reliable missing tooth detection when cranking with a flat battery etc, but it should be fine as is and is not related to your poor running.

[Clattie]

1. Lambda is currently reading 0. Does it take a while to calibrate?

2. Done

5. Okay, I will move the Crank 90 degrees from TDC and then adjust the missing teeth to hit the sensor instead. Then setup ignition timing once again.

[DerekAE86]

3 minutes ago, Clattie said:

Lambda is currently reading 0. Does it take a while to calibrate?

There is a start-up lockout period to allow the Lambda sensor to heat up and read correctly, but it's usually around 30s after the engine has started by default.

So if it's still reading 0 after the engine has been running for more than 30s then the ECU is just not receiving anything.

What Wideband controller are you using?

[Clattie]

11 minutes ago, DerekAE86 said:

There is a start-up lockout period to allow the Lambda sensor to heat up and read correctly, but it's usually around 30s after the engine has started by default.

So if it's still reading 0 after the engine has been running for more than 30s then the ECU is just not receiving anything.

What Wideband controller are you using?

Probably have not had it running over 30 seconds, that explains that. (I thought it was used to adjust for idle somehow during start-up). How does it actually adjust the idle then, what does it use?

I'm using the Link Wideband as recommended, some guy said it also feedbacks more info than regular controllers or something along them lines.... it was ages ago now.

[Vaughan]

If you are using the Link CAN Lambda then you can look at the status of it in the Runtime View (F12 or 'R') ECU status tab in the Lambda 1 box

[Clattie]

3 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

If you are using the Link CAN Lambda then you can look at the status of it in the Runtime View (F12 or 'R') ECU status tab in the Lambda 1 box

Okay mate cheers, ill try and get it to idle for 30 seconds and see if it's 'operating' with some sort of A/F Ratio. 

[Clattie]

Right, I edited all the suggestions and fired it up today, it running a lot better and it isn't bogging down but now it's running around 2000 RPM... Would this be to do with my fueling?

Also, I wasn't sure what Derek was talking about when he was referring to the ignition table being advanced by 20 degrees in the "idle range" as I've loaded up the stock MR2/ST205 Map and it's exactly the same. Again complete novice lol, don't know what that means yet.

Here's my setup and running log, although I didn't get a full 30 seconds for the lambda to fire up as someone at home was sleeping after a night shift

Link -  https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ufr_cIgun4jqJUJMh5bT9ObafHruG5pu/view?usp=sharing, https://drive.google.com/file/d/1omn_CtZHXUwrYJSUPXpN58m78UaiNGU8/view?usp=sharing (New Links)

UPDATE - I've just looked at the log file and it seems i have 170 trigger errors but no ECU code. Whats the deal with that?

[koracing]

Can you attach a copy of the current tune with the changes you've made thus far?  Your idle base position values are for a PWM idle motor, not e-throttle in the first map you attached.  

Trigger errors won't necessarily throw a code, but you can see a lot of them in the rpm trace.  A trigger scope while cranking and while idling may help to determine why you're getting trigger errors.  What sensor and trigger kit are you using?  Is it the Racer X setup?

[Clattie]

2 hours ago, koracing said:

Can you attach a copy of the current tune with the changes you've made thus far?  Your idle base position values are for a PWM idle motor, not e-throttle in the first map you attached.  

Trigger errors won't necessarily throw a code, but you can see a lot of them in the rpm trace.  A trigger scope while cranking and while idling may help to determine why you're getting trigger errors.  What sensor and trigger kit are you using?  Is it the Racer X setup?

1. I've just uploaded a new link to the old comment for the map file. So I don't need to bother with the base idle now?

2. I'll get a scope when it's running when I can, Maybe it's the slight issue Adam mentioned with the tooth gap? Yes I'm also running the Racer x Kit

[koracing]

Check air gaps, but I don't think the quality of the sensors and wheel are very good from Racer X.  Yeah there may be some issues with the position of the trigger gap also.  I've had issues with the racer x stuff in the past on Link.  Is it feasible to put the stock distributor back in for the cam sync at least?  If possible use it for cam and crank (Mr2 Heaven makes a billet distributor cover for when doing COP).

Yeah base idle is probably not helping things.  Is the current tune available by the link in the first post with the file named "A MR2 MAP.pclx"?

[Clattie]

19 minutes ago, koracing said:

Check air gaps, but I don't think the quality of the sensors and wheel are very good from Racer X.  Yeah there may be some issues with the position of the trigger gap also.  I've had issues with the racer x stuff in the past on Link.  Is it feasible to put the stock distributor back in for the cam sync at least?  If possible use it for cam and crank (Mr2 Heaven makes a billet distributor cover for when doing COP).

Yeah base idle is probably not helping things.  Is the current tune available by the link in the first post with the file named "A MR2 MAP.pclx"?

Trigger Error has only just started to happen, the sensors are actually really commonly used.. maybe the wheel could be an issue? I don't want to use a distributor either.

Yes the link for the file has been updated with the current map and log file.

[koracing]

Using the distributor for trigger signals does not mean you need to use it as a distributor for spark, fyi.  I am well aware of the Racerx setup and the cherry hall sensors he uses.

[Clattie]

6 minutes ago, koracing said:

Using the distributor for trigger signals does not mean you need to use it as a distributor for spark, fyi.  I am well aware of the Racerx setup and the cherry hall sensors he uses.

I know, I just don't want to use a distributor as the whole build is already setup for a crank sensor with the harness to match.

[koracing]

Try changing idle base to 3.5% across the board and then increase your idle rpm control above target to more like 2500 for testing purposes.  For the trigger issue, hard to say what would fix it, but starting by changing your gap position is a fair thing to do.  If you're unwilling to use the more reliable oem reluctors, you will probably need to try different air gaps on the cherry sensors.

[DerekAE86]

7 hours ago, Clattie said:

Also, I wasn't sure what Derek was talking about when he was referring to the ignition table being advanced by 20 degrees in the "idle range" as I've loaded up the stock MR2/ST205 Map and it's exactly the same. Again complete novice lol, don't know what that means yet.

I didn't say "by 20", I said "to 20". By "idle range" I mean in the 500-1500 rpm range and low manifold pressure (40-60kPa) because the throttle body is shut and engine in theory creating good vacuum.

If you look in that area of the ignition table you'll see it's all 20. (I wasn't aware this is just how the provided ST205 file is).

But in theory the timing in that range should be similar to what your ignition idle control target timing is so when ignition idle control activates the timing is already close to where it will be targeting. This will help with smooth transitions in and out of idle so the engine doesn't hesitate when taking off or want to stall when coming to a stop.

You probably don't have worry too much about it at this point as once you take the car to a tuner they'll fix all that up.

[Adamw]

Do a couple of trigger scope captures so we can take a look if there are any clues to the trigger issue.  You should have the internal pull-ups turned off if you are using the ones supplied with the kit.  

[Clattie]

15 hours ago, Adamw said:

Do a couple of trigger scope captures so we can take a look if there are any clues to the trigger issue.  You should have the internal pull-ups turned off if you are using the ones supplied with the kit.  

I will but i do have the internal pull-ups on... wouldn't read triggers with an external one. 

[Clattie]

I will hopefully update you guys on this on the weekend, not been home for a while!