ethrottle E-throttle Sub/Main(?) TPS&FPS sensors (SOLVED... USER ERROR)

[Davidv]

Hi, I'm looking to setup E-throttle shortly with an Altezza 3SGE throttle body. On a G4+ Xtreme Red.

Question one:

Looking through the documentation, it says that it requires TPS main and sub, FPS main and sub wired to 4 seperate inputs.

Am I correct in thinking that this is just two wires each coming out of the TPS plug, and two wires coming out of the FPS plug? One which gains voltage one which drops voltage as it sweeps through it's range?

Question two:
A lot of the documentation now mentions the Black edition Xtreme, and any mention of the Red seems to be gone.

Which is fine, but what's the effective difference between the two, am I safe in following the pinouts/guides/etc that mention black version, for the Red?

Question three:
In the box with the ECU there was a little booklet which had a pinout of the plugs, (I can find this in the online help in PClink) but also on another page a list to write down what you were planning to use all of the inputs/outputs for.

I found this useful, is there a copy online somewhere so I can print out another one?


 

Also on a bit of a tangent, but what are peoples experiences with e-throttle?

People with Altezzas (with factory ECU) seem to moan that it feels mushy, but I'm guessing it's just because you've got no control over it's logic, and how it decides to use it for traction control etc.

Which obviously isnt the case when you're running a Link!

What is the response time of an E-throttle if you mash the throttle wide open, is there a noticeable latency at all?

I'm mainly wanting it to make the car a little less jerky to drive at low throttle openings... But cruise control will be neat as well

 

Edited September 30, 2015 by Davidv

[Dave Kriedeman]

Hi Davidv,

Yes the ECU need to see both TPS MAIN and SUB and FPS MAIN and SUB.

Both sensors will also have 5 volt ref and sensor ground.

As for the RED G4+ EXTREME I think the DBW was a paid for option and now the BLACK EXTREME it is free. (NOT SURE THOUGH AS I AM ViPEC ORIENTATED).

As for the operation of the DBW itself, it is outstanding, as long as the PID setup is done correctly the rest is up to you as to how responsive you wish to make it via the ETHROTTLE TARGET TABLE values you use.

Regards

Dave.

[Davidv]

Okay so there are 4 wires coming out of both the TPS and the FPS, so I dont understand exactly how to wire it as MAIN and SUB.

One pin on each is redundant, because it's the "throttle is closed" switch.

However the other three....

Do I wire one to the 5V sensor supply, and then wire one to SUB and one to MAIN?

Or something else?

[JMP]

The Throttle position sensor has 4 wires, 5V (VC), VTA, VTA2 and sensor ground (E2), the pedal position sensor also has 4 wires with the same 5V and ground along with VPA and VPA2.

Wire VTA to AN Volt 6 and set to TPS Main

Wire VTA2 to AN Volt 5 and set to TPS Sub

Wire VPA to AN Volt 3 and set to FPS Main

Wire VPA2 to AN Volt 2 and set to FPS Sub.

This is also detailed fairly well in the help files

[Davidv]

Ahh that's great, thanks!
 

[Drty30]

Hello,

I have fitted a g4+ plugin ecu to a 3SGE and i'm having trouble calibrating the TP.

The issue is with the TP calibration (TP MAIN and TP SUB)

 

By default TP (SUB) is ANV5 and TP (MAIN) ANV6. With this configuration the TP calibration fails and the TP displayed in link is a maximum of approx. 60 percent. I get error 16 target 98 cant be reached. 

 

During the troubleshooting process i swapped the tp main and sub functions in pc link. This provided better results as as the calibration screen would show the TP getting to 100 percernt but sort of "chattering" between 95 and 100. Ironically the TP calibration would complete successfully randomly if you continue trying to calibrate it. Once switching ethrottle to ON and not setup however, i get error code 76 as soon as you touch the throttle.

 

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

[muzzytt]

Good luck i spent hours trying to resolve this with no success on my 2jzgte vvti .

I ended up feeding tp main to both inputs on the link same with fp main fed that to both link inputs. 

 

[Drty30]

I fed TP(Main) to both inputs on the link as you described and still the TP calibration failed. The throttle blade moves smoothly to 100 percent throttle during TP(Main) calibration then closes, moves smoothly to 100 percent during TP(Sub) calibration then closes. On the final part of the calibration it moves to 100 percent then oscillates rapidly between say 95 and 100 percent then fails on error 16 again.

As soon as you switch ethrottle to on mode it fails on error 76. The FP seems to be working fine however havent gotten any errors on this side using bot the FP main and sub signals.

 

 

[Dave Kriedeman]

Hi all,

I am going to setup a Toyota DBW pedal and Throttle body for testing this week.

I don't have the exact DBW setup as you guys have but this will prove if there is any issues.

I upgraded a V88 installation on a DBW vehicle 2 weeks ago to an i88 with 5.4.3 firmware and it works perfectly.

Regards

Dave.

[Drty30]

Hi All,

As a temporary solution i tied the TP main signal to both tp main and tp sub inputs on the link and changed the PID settings  to 5, .059. 20. The calibration completed successfully and the throttle now works. FP main and FP sub are wired as per specification. 

Regards,

 

Edited September 7, 2015 by Drty30

[Davidv]

Hello,

I have fitted a g4+ plugin ecu to a 3SGE and i'm having trouble calibrating the TP.

The issue is with the TP calibration (TP MAIN and TP SUB)

 

By default TP (SUB) is ANV5 and TP (MAIN) ANV6. With this configuration the TP calibration fails and the TP displayed in link is a maximum of approx. 60 percent. I get error 16 target 98 cant be reached. 

 

During the troubleshooting process i swapped the tp main and sub functions in pc link. This provided better results as as the calibration screen would show the TP getting to 100 percernt but sort of "chattering" between 95 and 100. Ironically the TP calibration would complete successfully randomly if you continue trying to calibrate it. Once switching ethrottle to ON and not setup however, i get error code 76 as soon as you touch the throttle.

 

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

 

I just finished wiring mine up and have done some testing.

Initially in my datalogs it would show that the TPS main was smooth but the TPS sub quite jumpy. Switched to a spare TPS and now it's fine, both signals very smooth.

However it now gives Error 16, target 98% cant be reached.

FPS calibration works fine, TPS calibration works fine, the TPS vs FPS calibration works fine, then at the last hurdle it trips over. The throttle slams open and shut over and over for the last little bit of calibration.

What does this error code mean exactly? That it thinks the throttle cant open 98% of the way?

If I turn on the datalogging, the FPS sub/main and TPS sub/main signals move smoothly through the range in proportion with each other. So it doesnt appear to be an issue with the sensors that I can see.

I'm using the proportion gain etc settings as per the manual's settings for Toyota throttle bodies.

EDIT: I see that the basemap for the Altezza has some different settings to what I'm using, I'll try these again in the morning.

Edited September 19, 2015 by Davidv

[Davidv]

Okay so I had another look at this, the polarity of the motor looked to be the wrong way around.... Which is what was causing the flutter / throttle slamming. Must have been looking at the wiring diagram backwards.

After that though, it took a bit of fiddling with the TPS angle to get it to calibrate. If I repeat the calibrations they seem to work about 30% of the time.

I think it might relate to PID settings, it seems to work most successfully with 30% and -30% clamp and all of the gain settings reduced.

[Davidv]

Okay I ended up with the following settings seem to be working well for the Altezza TB:

 

Proportional gain: 4.75

Integral gain: 0.005

Derivative gain: 35

Max clamp / min clamp 95%

I started out with higher values for all of the gains, but found that I had the throttle plate fluttering after a sharp opening, and also when held steady state at 100% throttle the TPS reading (and throttle angle) was fluctuating.

So I held it at 100% throttle and kept reducing derivative gain until it stopped fluttering at steady state 100% throttle.

Then quickly flicking throttle open to say 30%, reduced integral gain and proportional gain until the throttle plate would stop fluttering.

Since it was working with two variables I'd reduce one until it stopped fluttering then see if I could raise the other, the values above seemed to be the combination where I could go the highest on both.

Based on observation:

Proportional gain determines how quickly the throttle plate moves to reach the target initially.
Set to a low value, and it will take a few seconds for the plate to respond to changes. (will feel laggy) Set too high, and it overshoots and needs to overcorrect and causes fluttering.

Integral gain seemed to be how aggressively it tries to fine tune the angle once it's reached its target. If you snap the throttle open quickly to half way and it flutters, reduce this.

Keeping in mind you want the highest values that do not cause flutter for best response,

If you setup a screen on the laptop to monitor FPS main/sub and TPS main sub, you can see if the throttle plate is fluctuating compared to FPS position easily. Although sitting with the TB in front of you where you can watch it also helps.

It seems to be pretty good now, good throttle response but minimal flutter. I've only tested with the engine not running so far though.
I'll see how it goes when I've finished all of my wiring.

So far though I'm pretty happy with how it's working! Looking forward to having the car be a bit more drivable at low throttle angles.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Davidv

[Davidv]

Hmmm okay so further testing, and it calibrates fine but then when set to "on" always has problems.

Ran some logging on it.
You can see below, both of the FPS signals track each other nicely. The TPS main is working fine but the TPS sub is jumpy.

If I take the TPS off and move it slowly through its range, they both track fine. But when it moves fast, TPS sub has problems.

Does this sound about right for being a physical TPS fault? Just seems coincidental that 2 out of 2 of my TPSs exhibit the same symptoms.

 

I guess it makes sense that E-throttles can wear out TPSs a lot quicker than normal cars, and faster than the FPS sensors.

Probably spends 10x longer moving around than the FPS.

 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2015 by Davidv

[Davidv]

Hmmmm just tested again with my other TPS that I'd deemed faulty - that one doesnt even calibrate at all.

It seems reasonably common that Altezzas chew through TPSs  so it must just be bad luck with two faulty sensors, will grab a brand new one and report back.

 

[JMP]

I'd be  checking the loom/terminal integrity for the TPS. I've seen plenty of old Toyota looms where the insulation breaks down or you get corrosion up the wiring under the insulation.  You can also watch the runtime value screen to see if noise is being introduced to the signal

[Davidv]

Okay thanks. This is a wire in ECU, and I've split the TPS wiring out to its individual wires and then relaid it into a loom to suit the car it's in.

I didnt notice any wear/cuts/etc or any other obvious degradation of the wiring, however do you have some additional methods for testing?

I should have a new TPS here tomorrow afternoon, seeing how one of them worked significantly worse than the other.
If no luck with that, I'll start again from scratch with the wiring.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Davidv

[Davidv]

Argh, this has been frustrating.

With a $$Brand new$$ Toyota TPS.

If I adjust the TPS slightly one way for calibration, it says limited TPS/SUB movement.

If I adjust the TPS slightly back the other way, it says cannot reach 98% 

If I find that spot in the middle and have very conservative PID settings, every once in a while it will calibrate correctly.

Then I get TPS main / sub tracking error when I set it to ON and it shuts down almost immediately.

this is what it's looking like on the graph, notice the spikes on TPS sub vs main.

What's next to try?

My battery voltage is good and the 5v supply stays rock solid at 4.98 volts.

I'm guessing ripping out my TPS wiring and starting again is next up.

Is it possible that the 12v signal going to the e-throttle motor is causing signal interference if bunched in with my other wiring? Should I try a shielded pair for the TPS output signals.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Davidv

[Simon]

The dip in the Sub % is certainly where the issues is going to be.

Does the raw voltage follow this pattern too?

 

[Davidv]

I think I'm making some headway on this.
I found a Toyota document that had the expected span for the TPS voltages at open and closed.

The FPS matched this, for both signals, as did TPS main.

However my TPS sub voltage was 3.5 when it should be 2-2.5 max.

Seeing how I've tested 2 TPSs and then bought a brand new 3rd one, all which show faults. Points to the wiring being at fault.

I picked up some 2 wire shielded cable so I'm going to yank the whole lot out and redo the TPS wiring.

Strangely, from factory the FPS wires are shielded but TPS isnt.
Possibly because it took a different path in the loom or something.
So I'll play it safe and just use shielded for TPS as well, since I'm redoing it anyway.

[Davidv]

Okay solved!

I had wired it incorrectly.

I had a spare complete Altezza engine loomed here so traced the wire colours.

One of the signal output wires was brown, Glancing at the diagram and then back at that. Initially I figured it was the earth.

Rewired properly and now it's working great, no errors.

So the error checking system works great.

[Dave Kriedeman]

Hi Davidv,

well done, very happy to hear you have resolved the issue CORRECTLY.

Regards

Dave.

[Davidv]

Thanks David,

My PID settings can now be a lot more aggressive without flutter now... The factory suggested Altezza settings work great, and the response time is well beyond what I was expecting!

Looking forward to getting the rest of the wiring finished and everything finalized for some summer trackdays.

[Jay1902]

On 9/30/2015 at 3:09 AM, Davidv said:

Okay solved!

I had wired it incorrectly.

I had a spare complete Altezza engine loomed here so traced the wire colours.

One of the signal output wires was brown, Glancing at the diagram and then back at that. Initially I figured it was the earth.

Rewired properly and now it's working great, no errors.

So the error checking system works great.

These are the wires on the throttle position sensor your speaking about?